Talk:List of Victoria Cross recipients by nationality

Discussion of changes

Right, well since it was said in VfD that changes should be discussed here - I feel the non British Empire/Commonwealth country lists are just too short. My opinion is that it would be better off having one list by nationality of all the non-commonwealth countries. Average Earthman 16:33, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think it's better to just have one single list, organised by nationality - British first, then all others alphabetically. Chris 22:03, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

That makes sense to me too. This project seems to have lapsed for the last couple of months, but there were several keen people working on it back in July. They may be back, but we can't rely on when. The site this material came from is closing owing to time overcommitment of the participants!

In view of that, if we are to restructure their index system, we need to be prepared to do the work of consistently changing it, rather than just deleting parts of the existing structure, see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of Swedish Victoria Cross recipients. Assuming that there is that commitment, I'd support the restructure. Andrewa 00:27, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'd be happy to spare some time to rearrange the list onto one page (or at least nations with few awards). Chris 04:14, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Confirming nationality by including birth dates & country place names

I agree with the above statements it would be better to include all countries who have a very small number of VC recipients in one separate list.

Would others interested in constructing Lists of VC recipients by nationality not agree that for confirmation & biographical reasons it is necessary that birth, dates and place names should be included to confirm nationality.

To define whether a VC is to be listed under Scottish, Welsh, English or Irish recipients lists their birth dates & place names must be inclosed to define their countries of origin. Remembering all UK VCs were classed as British citizens (Including those born in Ireland before 1949 (Nationality Act)

Likewise if a VC has been born in one country and then naturalised in another commonwealth country like many Australian and Canadian VCs were, then they can be included on two lists.

Information regards births dates and place names can be found in all three editions of 'The Register of the Victoria Cross' 1981, 1988 & 1997.

I have inserted birth dates, place names and death records to all 168 Irish Recipients of the Victoria Cross.

George Fleming

Nationality confusion

At least for New Zealand there are some "errors". The commonly cited number of New Zealanders awarded Victoria Crosses is 22 -- which does not include Henry Cecil Dudgeon D'arcy and Bernard Freyberg who are listed in the New Zealand section. But, Freyberg was commissioned in the NZ Army and was later Governor-General of NZ, and D'arcy was born in New Zealand. So it gets confusing. I would have to guess that there are similar cases for the other nationalities. Any thoughts on how this should be dealt with? Evil Monkey - Hello 08:08, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Yep, I think we need to have specific criteria about what constitutes the nationality. That is why I have left the List of New Zealander Victoria Cross recipients intact for the moment. I think this list should be down to those who had nationality at the time of the award and this should be stated in the lead. Woodym555 11:21, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

And to the original "List of New Zealander Victoria Cross recipients" I had added "those buried in NZ" and "those with a family connection" eg several in the AIF plus William Barnard Rhodes-Moorehouse in WWI - how do I get those back into an accessible list? While a note could be added to the Australian and British lists, the idea was to avoid the need to trawl long lists to find any VC winners buried in NZ! Hugo999 (talk) 04:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The sortable nature of the table is intended to remove the issues generally associated with long lists. The New Zealand page was getting full of tangents and I could see the day where "people who had ever set foot on New Zealand" would have its own section. The page as I redirected it can be seen at this permalink. The issue is complicated as several countries claim recipients as their own. I have kept this list to born or lived/fought for. Personally I don't really see the need for a buried in list, though I am open to building it if asked. Woody (talk) 09:03, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The flags

I would support the little flags not being used. There seems to be a number of errors. In theory Charles Heaphy (1864) should have a Union Flag, since the current New Zealand flag was not adopted (at least in part) until 1869. The current flag of the British Virgin Islands was not adopted until 1960. Likewise, the flag of Jamaica wasn't adopted until 1962. To be really nit-picky, the German flags should be Image:Flag of Germany (2-3).svg, the flag of the German Confederation. All the Indian awards should be the Star of India (flag). I could be just being really anal here, because I can't be bothered fixing them :-) Evil Monkey - Hello 08:29, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I have removed all the flagicons, they weren't really adding that much, and they were all inaccurate. Most of them would have needed Union Flags so it doesn't show that much. I have also centre aligned the date column. Woodym555 11:49, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Deleting Jensen as Danish

There does not seem to be a definition of nationality. Is it place of birth or citizenship at the time of the award of the VC. Or should it be the nationality of the force in which the recipient was awarded the Victoria Cross. For Jørgen Jensen was born in Denmark but he became a British subject in 1914 and was awarded the Victoria Cross as a member of the Australian forces. The reason he became a British subject in 1914 was because then there was no such thing as Australian citizenship. Indeed no Australians who were citizens when they were born have ever been awarded the Victoria Cross and only four Australian citizens have been awarded the Victoria Cross. The Australian Citizenship Act came into effect on 26 January 1949 so only the four Vietnam War recipients were Australian citizens when awarded the Victoria Cross. Since all four were born before 26 January 1949 then no Australians who were citizens when the were born have ever been awarded the Victoria Cross.

I think that nationality of the force should be the criterion which is the criterion for nationality by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. The nationalities for Commonwealth War Dead are Australia, Canada, (Undivided) India, New Zealand, South Africa and United Kingdom. If the criterion is citizenship then there are just four Australian recipients and if it is place of birth there are 80 Australia recipients since 17 of the 91 members of the Australian forces were not born in Australia. In addition to the 74 Australian born members of the Australian forces there are six Australian born recipients of other forces. So until Beatham is listed as English, Birks as Welsh, Cooke as New Zealand etc I will delete Jensen as Danish.--Anthony Staunton (talk) 02:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

It should also be noted that Wing Cdr John Dering Nettleton VC is listed as Rhodesian yet he was born in Nongoma in South Africa, moving to Cape Town in 1928 where he went to Western Province Prep School until entering the SA Training Ship 'General Botha' at Simon's Town. On qualifying as a merchant navy cadet, he went to sea and served ashore locally, also joining the RNVR (SA) in Cape Town. He then went to GB to join the RAF. I can find no record of him being Rhodesian and the only apparent link was the squadron he served in which was the 'Rhodesian' squadron. (AG Soderlund) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.245.69.68 (talk) 20:10, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Amalgamation discussion

After an IP has been reinstating the content of List of Indian Victoria Cross recipients, I may as well open up discussion again. Currently, those countries with over 75 recipients have their own lists due to their size. Below that, there is no need for a separate list, it is all included here. Whilst I accept that a separate list could become an FL, there is no need as it can be perfectly included here as it is at the moment. What do other people think? Woody (talk) 13:45, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Incomplete tag

I have removed the incomplete tag as this list is as complete as it is going to get due to size constraints. As is stated on the list, some nationalities are summarised here and expanded on in their own lists. What is incomplete about this list as it stands? Woody (talk) 13:37, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Missing Names

Sgt Aubrey Cousins, VC from Latchford, Ontario, Canada —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.25.180.163 (talk) 23:12, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

also Canadian Campbell Mellis Douglas

also Canadian Alexander Dunn at the Battle of Balaclava

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.52.128.230 (talk) 17:09, 11 February 2016 (UTC) 

Also missing:

Lt Colonel Herbert Jones 2 PARA, UK ARMY - Falklands Ward 1982 - 27/28 May Action at Goose Green — Preceding unsigned comment added by Henryward1957 (talk • contribs) 07:11, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Canadian and English recipients are linked to other pages - click on the Canadian or English Recipients links to access them Kernel Saunters (talk) 11:43, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

The names of all those who received VCs at the Battle of Rorke’s Drift should be included: Lieutenant John Rouse Merriott Chard, 5th Field Coy, Royal Engineers, Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead; B Coy, 2nd/24th Foot, Corporal William Wilson Allen; B Coy, 2nd/24th Foot, Private Frederick Hitch; B Coy, 2nd/24th Foot, Private Alfred Henry Hook; B Coy, 2nd/24th Foot, Private Robert Jones; B Coy, 2nd/24th Foot, Private William Jones; B Coy, 2nd/24th Foot, Private John Williams; B Coy, 2nd/24th Foot, Surgeon James Henry Reynolds; Army Medical Department, Acting Assistant Commissary James Langley Dalton; Commissariat and Transport Department. Corporal Christian Ferdinand Schiess; 2nd/3rd Natal Native Contingent — Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryGMason (talk • contribs) 13:35, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bede_Kenny — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.68.101.68 (talk) 13:36, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Likewise List of Australian Victoria Cross recipients. Hamish59 (talk) 14:00, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Missing name: Certain

Portuguese Private Aníbal Augusto Milhais, in the Battle of La Lys, April 1918, received the Victoria Cross for his acts, covering the retreat of thousands of British soldiers. PR.PT (talk) 15:29, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

This soldier may have received the DCM or MM but did not receive the Victoria Cross. Awards to foreign soldiers are not usually gazetted so checking the London Gazette for confirmation is not an option. However, his name does not appear in official lists of recipients produced by the War Office. I will check some references and pose the question to some experts and see if I can determine the award granted to this gallant Portuguese soldier. Anthony Staunton (talk) 11:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

In the First World War two Distinguished Conduct Medals (DCM) and 76 Military Medals (MM) were awarded to Portuguese troops. I am still checking the names. Anthony Staunton (talk) 10:46, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Nationality follow up

What are the guidelines for Nationality? I see John Danaher is listed as South African in the list but his Wiki page lists him as Irish. Can someone put together a short guideline perhaps? Gbawden (talk) 08:37, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Since nationally is not defined how can there be guidelines? For some it is place of birth, for others it is citizenship while I prefer nationality of the force. All have conceptual issues including nationality of the force. It is valid to include HEIC with the Indian Army although I separate the figures. I do not think anyone includes VCs to the British Army regiments in India between 1895 and 1902 but technically the British Army units were part of the official Indian Army during that period. Some sources list the one Scottish Horse VC of the South African War 1899-1902 as a British Army award instead of a South African award. As to citizenship no person born an Australian citizen has ever been awarded the Victoria Cross. Of the 80 Australian born recipients, 74 of the 91 recipients serving in the Australian forces, four of the five Australians serving in South Africa and British forces counted in Australia as Australian recipients and two others born in Australia who are not counted in Australia as Australian recipients, none were born before 26 January 1949 when Australian citizenship was first proclaimed. Anthony Staunton (talk) 14:48, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Correction for confusing format proposed

This is not a list of Victoria Cross recipients by nationality. It is "A_List_of_Miscellaneous_Victoria_Cross_recipients_by_nationality_selected_according_to_whether_the _citizens_of_a_nation_have_won_less_than_75_Victoria_Crosses_mixed_with_pointers_to_other_pages_where_the_citizens_of_a_nation_have_won_more_than_75." Of course, such a title would be very confusing — but not less confusing than the manner in which the page is currently formatted.

I understand that a single list with over 1300 items might be unwieldy but making the minor exceptions the major component of a topic is very poor style. All the items on a list should possess similar semantic content. That is, a list of recipients should contain recipients and a list of pointers should contain pointers. No professional editor would let an author get away with mixing the two like this because readers find it confusing. My suggestion is that this page become a list of lists and its current list of VC recipients placed on another list with an appropriate title such as, for example, "A List of Victoria Cross Recipients Other Nationalities". With perhaps some text to describe the selection criterion and why it's necessary.75.157.135.57 (talk) 07:40, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

main article info does not need to be repeated

From the second paragraph that suggests the VC is a ‘military decoration’ to the last paragraph that states ‘Several Commonwealth countries have now created their own award systems’ the summary of the history of the VC is replete with errors. The VC is a decoration that is usually awarded to the military but has in the past been awarded to civilians. It is not several countries but all major countries of the Commonwealth which have created their own award systems. However, in the third paragraph ‘Between 1897 and 1901, several notices were issued in the London Gazette regarding soldiers who would have been awarded the VC had they survived. In a partial reversal of policy in 1902, six of the soldiers mentioned were granted the VC, but not "officially" awarded the medal.’ shows a total misunderstanding of posthumous awards. There were three notices issued in 1900 and 1901 and in an exception to policy for the South African War, the next of kin of the three received their medals in 1902. At the same time, three posthumous VCs awards were also gazetted. Since this is a list of recipients, the history and evolution of the VC does not need to be repeated and all paragraphs after the first should be deleted. --Anthony Staunton (talk) 00:08, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Editor needed

(I can’t see how to do it); Link says 91, but there are 100 Australians listed (at the link); 96 + 4 newies. MBG02 (talk) 07:26, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Ninety-one members of Australian forces have been awarded the VC. In addition, Australia counts five ex-members of Australian forces as Australian recipients and has done so for more than seventy years. From 5 November 1992, the British Victoria Cross and all other British medals formerly recommended by Australian governments are treated as foreign. Since 1992, four soldiers of the Australian Army have been awarded under the Australian Honours System, the highest Australian award which is named in honour of the British Victoria Cross but is a unique Australian award named the ‘Victoria Cross for Australia’. Needless to say, in the local press it simplified to 100 VCs with which I am comfortable. It is also appropriate the link page on Australian VC mentions the three categories and makes clear there are four VCFA awards, 91 Australian forces VCs and five VCs to Australians serving with South African forces, the Royal Fusiliers and the RAF. On a general note, if you want the nationality totals to match the total number of VCs awarded, 1358, then the only way is to list the nationality of the service in the case of Britain and the country in the case of the Commonwealth. But if that is adopted there are no foreign recipients except for the Unknown American warrior and Canada will have about 79 instead of 96 or the 99 recipients. Anthony Staunton (talk) 15:40, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

@Anthony Staunton: Re: five VCs to Australians serving with South African forces, the Royal Fusiliers and the RAF.

I can’t see who the 5 are; there are 2 SthAf, 3 RAF, and 1 Fusilier. Can you update (notate) the article List of Australian Victoria Cross recipients ? MBG02 (talk) 18:05, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Added a line at the top of the list of recipients 'Includes five former members of the Australian forces: Rogers - South African Constabulary, Dartnell, Pearse and Sullivan - Royal Fusiliers and Edwards - RAF' Anthony Staunton (talk) 02:30, 26 August 2018 (UTC)