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This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was - no consensus to delete

Dr. Michael M. Krop High School

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Votes

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And yet another high school, nothing notable here. The main entry is the adress and the area where the students come from -- Chris 73 Talk 03:55, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)

Keep. Latest changes by AAAAA are very impressive. Borderline notability, but keep. -- Chris 73 Talk 00:11, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)
  • Non-notable high school. Delete. --Slowking Man 05:21, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)
    • Keep, after recent changes by User:AAAAA. Another article improved through the Vfd process. --Slowking Man 05:44, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)
  • Non-notable. Delete. RickK 05:43, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Unless Wikipedia has become the Yellow Pages and I didn't notice. Average Earthman 09:35, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. --AAAAA 12:53, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • Please see Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy/schools. Some people think that all school pages should be kept. Some think they should be deleted. But why destroy contributions?
    • Potential Interest: There are about 1000 students graduating every year. Assuming each has 2 parents (to make it easy to calculate), that's about 3000 students/yr. In 10 years, it's of interest to 30000 people, at least. Any school is "notable" for its current students and ex-alumni
    • So somebody needs to get killed to be "Notable" and appear in Wikipedia? (p.e. Columbine High School)). Why not focus on the positive?
    • Wiki is not paper I don't think it does harm to add information of potential interest to 1000s of people.
    • There is no reason to not have them. They will not be cluttering.
    • An article about a school is not offensive.
    • The article is not factually inacurate
    • Why not let the article be there for some time (maybe a few months). If it doesn't "grow", let's vote again about deletion.
    • Increases the comprehensiveness of the Encyclopedia.--AAAAA 12:53, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • 915 Google Hits
      • Many of these refer to Michael Krop, not the achool. Cool Hand Luke 00:11, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
      • Less than 1000? I'm seriously not impressed. I probably get nearly 1000 google hits. Such a low number doesn't help the theory that there are thousands interested in this school. Wiki isn't paper - true - servers don't grow on trees. I could also write an article on my coffee mug that would be neither inaccurate or offensive, concentrating only on the positive aspects of the mug's ability to hold hot, caffeine rich liquid, and the article would increase the 'comprehensiveness of the encyclopedia', but that still wouldn't make it a useful article. Average Earthman 14:54, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
        • You are right. 1000 google hits is not that much. But at least is not zero. I believe the school is too new. Regarding your coffee mug, a coffee mug (a regular one) is not something unique. A school is. A school imprints memories, day to day, for several years, to THOUSANDS of people.--AAAAA 18:12, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete: Non-notable high school. Tens of thousands of people a day walk by a billboard on 55th and Lexington in NYC. We don't put up an article on it. Geogre 12:59, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • The billboard may come and go and after a few years nobody will remember. A school imprints memories in thousands of people.--AAAAA 13:36, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
      • Delete. So might a cloud. Doesn't make it notable. I wholeheartedly disagree with AAAAA's reasoning. --Improv 16:06, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
        • A cloud might imprint a single memory on a single person (or maybe a small group of people). A school imprints memories, day to day, for several years, to THOUSANDS of people. It is totally different.--AAAAA 17:31, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete: Non-notable. --G Rutter 13:04, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I'm keeping my vote as delete. AAAAA, I think you've done a good job (and it looks like this school will be staying, so well done), but I still think that it's non-notable. The interesting part of the article is on the STAR programme, which I think should be merged with the Magnet school article. This could then be expanded into an interesting article on different programmes worldwide (for example, the city academies the Labour Government is promoting in the UK). --G Rutter 07:50, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep - SimonP 15:11, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)
    • Thank you for your support!--AAAAA 16:21, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete the article. Keep the school. —Rory ☺ 17:18, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)Keep. —Rory ☺ 18:54, Sep 25, 2004 (UTC)
    • Thank you Rory for your support! Greatly appreciated. --AAAAA 19:08, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Why is it so important for so many people (the "delete" votes) to save a few bytes of Hard Drive memory in one of Wikipedia's servers?--AAAAA 15:42, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete, does not appear to be notable. Space is not the problem - knowledge drowning in a sea of information is. --Ianb 19:26, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • The power of the Internet and the way Wikipedia works will not make you "drown in the sea of information". If you (or anybody) is not interested in the school, you will never end in the page for the school. You will not drown. Don't worry.--AAAAA 15:42, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Hey! I am impressed by the improvements you have made. Please, everyone, please reconsider all your previous delete votes. Please take another look at this page. ---Rednblu 18:27, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • Delete. Fix this page to make the school look notable. Who were the most famous alumni? How many National Merit Scholars have there been from this school in the last few years? What sports championships have the sports teams won? Has the school drama team won a national prize? Is there some unique architecture to the place--perhaps a floating bridge or a helipad? Fix this page to make the school look notable and please post a message to User talk:Rednblu so that I have a chance to come back and change my vote. ---Rednblu 20:06, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • Working on it.--AAAAA 15:42, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • Many thanks to Rednblu for changing his vote to KEEP. I will keep working on the article even more in the next few days.--AAAAA 19:09, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. I appreciate the good-faith efforts of AAAAA in this contribution, but a high school of only local interest does not belong in an encyclopaedia. -- WOT 20:14, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • I think all schools belong in an encyclopedia. Also every year about 1000 students graduate. Adding their parents, that's about 3000 people with interest or potential interest. A substantial percentage of graduates move to other states to study and end up living in other states, so with time the school becomes of "national" interest.
  • Delete unless significantly improved before expiration of VfD. AAAAA, I appreciate the fact that you put some solid work into this contribution and didn't just drop in a stub. The problem for me is that this entry just does not tell me what's special about Dr. Michael M. Krop High School. I set the bar pretty low on that, but there has to be something. One way I have phrased this is this: pretend that your audience is a fellow alumnus. When they look up the high school in Wikipedia, you want them to get a warm fuzzy and have the feeling that the article is really about their school. I have also said "Try to give local-interest articles local color." Show that you really know this school. If you don't, then I'd suggest that it is much, much safer to expand one of the articles about a town you have lived in, any town you have lived in. (And don't worry if it has less than 1111 people; despite the note in Wikipedia:What's in, what's out the Rambot articles are a fait accompli and I don't see anyone deleting them any time soon). [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 00:20, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • Working on it. Thank you for the advise--AAAAA 15:42, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Keep. Borderline, but keep. This article would now be mildly interesting to an alum that was interested in catching up with what his or her school had accomplished lately, and reflects a reasonable level of research. This article could not have been done by a Rambot. It occurs to me that one measuring stick to use about school articles might be: "Could a teacher deciding where to apply for a job learn anything useful from this article?" This article does meet that standard. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 20:03, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. I (personally) don't believe high schools should be included unless the article attempts to make a case for notablilty at the very least. [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 00:24, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • Working on it.--AAAAA 15:42, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete non-notable schools do not belong here. RedWolf 04:55, Sep 25, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep User:AAAAA is working on it, give him/her a chance. Can always vfd it later, if appropriate. Wolfman 16:46, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • Thank you very much for your support!--AAAAA 17:28, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • As of today, 14 deletes, 3 Keeps. Hope to improve this soon --AAAAA 17:30, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • I like the improvements you have made. I switched my vote to a KEEP. I ask everyone who voted delete to please take another look at Dr. Michael M. Krop High School to reconsider in light of the what are, in my opinion, significant improvements in this page. Just a few more suggestions for improvement--at some point. I think the page already makes Dr. Michael M. Krop High School notable and encyclopedic.
      1. You might move the address from the lead section to a late section on the page named "Address of school." Do you really think the address of the school is that important?
      2. I would say the big "magnet" for this school is the STAR program. Why don't you make the first heading of the body of the article a description of the uniqness of the STAR program. Have students gotten oils exhitited in Chicago or New York galleries? Do students make movies? Do they win national film awards? Do they get special introduction to get auditions for Broadway shows? Did you have Hollywood directors visit? Just some ideas. I would move the "Boundaries for attendance" section much later on the page--to make room for a section making a "star out of STAR."
      3. How about diversity in the school? Is there some admission office mechanism for ensuring that the school is not just a haven for rich kids? Have there been community activists worrying about diversity in this magnet school? Perhaps the superintendent has made some statement about diversity? ---Rednblu 18:31, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. I appreciate the work the writer is doing here. But...would the author cover the similar material for every year to the same depth if the school were seventy years old? Does the author expect this article to be maintained to the same depth for the next forty years, for this and every high school? I am close to voting Keep on this one and would interested in AAAAA's comments because, unusually for high schools, we have a very capable editor who is obviously trying very hard and intelligently to create an excellent article. Jallan 17:56, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • My guess is that if the school was 70 years old, it would have many famous alumni and it would have received several national awards. As of now, the school is too young to have that.
    • Regarding the question if the article will be maintained with the same depth for the next forty years: I think that Wikipedia is quickly becoming the MAIN source of enciclopedic information IN THE WORLD. I envision wikipedia getting a TOP 100 place in Alexa[1] within the next 2 years. Students all over the world are using Wikipedia and will use even more as an enciclopedic reference tool. I believe that as time passes, more and more studends, and probably even the school teachers and/or administrators, will be involved in maintaining their own Wikipedia articles. I don't think that the idea of making a Wikipedia article as a class project for English or Journalism is far fetched. Once teachers all over the world start noticing Wikipedia as a powerful tool, I don't think that the "DELETE" community will be able to stop schools from becoming an integral part of Wikipedia.--AAAAA 18:27, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Though I seem to be swimming against the current here, I don't see what's wrong with keeping this. Antandrus 18:42, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • This morning the DELETEs were winning 14-3. We are right now at 12-6. I will keep working hard to make this article stay!--AAAAA 19:12, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • Despite the name "votes for deletion," the decision is not made by counting votes. The final decision is made by a sysop eyeballing the discussion as a whole and using his or her judgement to decide whether there is a rough consensus to delete. If there is no consensus, the article stays.
  • Keep. You all need to win a debate on deleting articles on hamlets in the middle of nowhere before it makes sense to delete an article on a high school of such size. Everyking 21:56, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. While I admire the effort that's gone into improving this article, adding a bunch of non-notable information doesn't make the school any more notable. A couple lines in the Miami article is at most what this topic deserves, sorry. The efforts are better spent improving other articles. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 23:22, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. A real school is a genuine community of (sometimes) thousands of people that has an impact that lasts the rest of their lives. There is always something unique and notable about such a community, the only thing that can be said in favor of deletion is that the deleter is not interested. It is their right to hold that point of view, but move on, don't prevent others from reading it. Mark Richards 06:43, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete, I think that you have made good progress in writing a good article, but it still has not made it any more notable. My position is that any school in and of itself is not notable until something happens to it. IMO people outside of the local area has to have heard of it. A rural high school in Montana may have 10-20% the population of an inner-city New York city high school, does it make the NYC high school 10 times more notable? (all other facts being equal, of course.) IMO no, neither is known outside of their local area. -Vina 18:53, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Problems with High School articles

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Please post discussion on this topic at /Problems with High School articles



More Votes

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  • Keep. Well-written and informative. Yes, it's obscure, but so are many other articles (such as Taqi al-Din and James Abourezk, which I recently created, and I don't think anyone will want those deleted). I know if I was new to Wikipedia, and I worked hard to create a good, NPOV article on a someone obscure topic, and then the community deleted it, I'd be much less likely to create good articles in the future. Let's not bite the newbies here. – Quadell (talk) (help)[[]] 21:37, Sep 25, 2004 (UTC)
  • Not notable. No notable alumni, not otherwise notable. Well written but extremely tedious boring and has no significant content. delete Dunc_Harris|☺ 22:04, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • The school is not old enough to have produced really notable alumni, but I have no doubt that within a few years it will produce them. In the meantime, you should let this article "live" to serve as a reference for the 1000s of graduates and their families (every year)--AAAAA 14:41, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. A lot of work has been put into this article. Doesn't deserve to "die"--65.11.249.210 22:44, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • Attention! You must log on with a genuine Wikipedia id for your vote to count. Notice that your signature is all numbers. So your vote will not count--unless you create a permanent Wikipedia id and come back and update your signature. ---Rednblu 22:54, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
      • Keep. A lot of work has been put into this article. Doesn't deserve to "die"--Dv1 23:08, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
        • New user, may be sockpuppet/ clueless newbie. disregard vote. Dunc_Harris|☺ 23:12, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
          • oh come on, this isn't a vote for adminship. it's a vote to let some high school entry stay, one that has a committed and hardworking editor. who's going to sockpuppet up over this? if it's a newcomer, why bite him/her? that's a great way to make sure they don't stick around to contribute. Wolfman 23:24, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
          • Hold on, Dunc, my buddy! There are certain rules about establishing citizenship in this Wikipedia community. And from all available evidence, User:Dv1 has not violated the rules for establishing citizenship any more than I have. Hence, you cannot disregard User:Dv1's vote--any more than you can disregard my vote. :) Cheer up, Dunc. Had a bad day? ---Rednblu 23:26, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Neutral—I would hate to see so much careful content deleted, but the article doesn't draw upon notable alumni as we usually let schools do. On the other hand, it's 6 years old, so that really isn't a possibility. I would feel better about keeping it if there were more evidence of political significance to its creation, but it seems reutine. Cool Hand Luke 00:11, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • Would like to point out RickK's removal of my spelling correction with bizarre accusations of 'personal attacks'. here The Recycling Troll 01:28, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • Oh, please do. Wikipedia policy is to remove personal attacks. Your User namer is very apropos. RickK 05:54, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Non-notable. Denni☯ 00:50, 2004 Sep 26 (UTC)
  • Delete. If people could only put this much effort into encyclopedic topics! Somebody ought to just start WikiSchools and then we can just port all of these people over there and quit having these debates once a week. --Fastfission 04:10, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • Until there is a WikiSchools, please let this article "live" here!--AAAAA 14:41, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete for my next trick, a very long treatment of the location of the hairs on my hands. Lots of effort, but still not notable.--Samuel J. Howard 06:22, Sep 26, 2004 (UTC)
    • Maybe you, your parents and/or spouse/girlfriend will ever care about the hairs of your hands. But over 20 years, at least 50,000 will care for this school.--AAAAA 14:41, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Mikkalai 06:41, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete: no evidence of notability. Wile E. Heresiarch 14:33, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • I think all schools are notable.--AAAAA 14:41, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. No matter how much work was put into this article, it's still a non-notable, non-encyclopedic article. I hope the creator of this article will put his/her efforts toward more useful articles. --Lowellian 00:19, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)

BEEFSTEW & more votes

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  • Comment BEEFSTEW score of the article, currently 7/10. (BEEFSTEW is a scoring system I just invented for my personal use in evaluating high school articles, particularly those ending up on VfD). [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 15:19, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • I like those criteria, and I think I'll use them. I'm changing my vote to keep. Cool Hand Luke 17:32, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • I agree, BEEFSTEW is a good system for this. – Quadell (talk) (help)[[]] 22:45, Sep 26, 2004 (UTC)
  • It's a good start as a system, but if it gives this article a 7 while Montgomery Bell Academy gets an 8, then it seems apparent that this tool is inadequate. There seems to me to be an obvious gap in both quality and notability between the two articles that's far bigger than the numbers indicate. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 23:22, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Gamaliel is probably right, but how could you improve BEEFSTEW? Improving scoring systems might serve to improve articles about high schools--AAAAA 23:28, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • On BEEFSTEW:
  • the criteria 'A'-'E' are poor indicators of whether an article (on high schools or otherwise) should be kept or deleted.
  • 'F' promotes "notability by association", which I believe is a poor guideline (and is generally rejected on VfD).
  • 'G' -- the "notability by national media mention" principle is sometimes used to bolster an article's case on VfD, but usually only if the media attention is due to notability, and not the other way around.
  • 'H' is an excellent measure.
  • 'I' is a little nebulous, and probably points mostly back to 'A'-'E'.
  • 'J' is good, I think, but will be more significant if and when Wikipedia is large and mature enough for a teacher to think it a good resource for finding well-maintained, unbiased, non-trivial information about high schools.
Notice that a stub about a very notable school might only score 1/10, whereas a mass of trivial information about an entirely unnotable school might score a 7/10 or 8/10 -- WOT 18:41, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I am trying to evaluate the quality of the article, not the notability of the school, because my own opinion is that good articles about non-notable schools are tolerable. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 20:33, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Thanks to User:Rednblu for his help in improving the article. Now, the BEEFSTEW score is probably an 8/10. I will try to get a school picture to go to a 9/10 soon.--AAAAA 22:29, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. The school seems to be notable, and although it needs some major cleanup right now, I'm confident AAAAA will take care of it. Right now it's got some notability/vanity issues, so here are my suggestions: Talk:Dr._Michael_M._Krop_High_School CryptoDerk 23:52, Sep 26, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. I thought I'd voted. Ambi 08:47, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep this. The Recycling Troll 18:44, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • I added an Aereal picture of the school. With it, maybe the BEEFSTEW score might be considered as a 9/10. I will try to keep on working on the article--AAAAA 23:07, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Notable enough, high quality article. Guus 20:56, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)

What will happen?

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  • Current standing: 18 Keeps/18 Deletes. What happens next?--AAAAA 22:23, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • When the VfD period is over, a sysop will eyeball the discussion and decide whether there is a rough consensus to delete the article. If there is no consensus to delete, the article is kept. With 18 keeps and 18 deletes there is no way any sysop is going to judge that there is a consensus to delete, unless there were very unusual circumstances (e.g. obvious evidence of gross sockpuppetry, which is certainly not the case here). My personal guess is that at this point, the odds of the article being deleted are about the same as the odds of Senator Kerry losing the state of Massachusetts in the presidential election. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 22:55, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • I read that the VfD period is 5 days. This was entered in VfD on Sep 24. More than 5 days have passed. In REALITY, how many days pass until a sysop "judges" and removes the VfD? It still makes me nervous to see the VfD there, after all the work done... --AAAAA 23:09, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
        • Don't worry about it. Read Wikipedia:Deletion_policy; it should answer most of your questions. If you look at Wikipedia:Votes_for_Deletion you will see that it is no longer on that page. It is now on Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Old, because the five-day period has, in fact, elapsed. Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Old is a holding area. Sysops will gradually work their way through it. This can take many days. You will see that articles from the 22nd and 23rd are still being worked on. Nothing is going on behind your back; the decision-making process is what is visible in the VfD discussion. Sysop judgement wouldn't play a factor unless a) the vote was about 2/3 in favor of deletion AND there were bizarre or suspicious things go on. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 02:36, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. I don't know how the article looked like when it was nominated for deletion, but I sure wondered the VfD status of it when I just came across it. It's more comprehensive than many other high school articles here. Someone said that only notable high schools should get an article. Wouldn't it be nice to say "hey, we noticed this school even before anything had happened there!"? There are articles about towns that have 1/10th of the population that this school has and yet they aren't VfD'ed, even though they're the main annoyance when you keep clicking Random page and 8 out of 10 links are about Distantville, population: 114. :P --ZeroOne 21:36, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.

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