Talk:George Meany

Needs work

I haven't tackled this article, because I favor wholesale revisions over incremental changes, but it needs work. In addition to fleshing out the Lovestone/AIFLD discussion, which needs more detail, the article also needs to address the AFL-CIO's position within the Democratic Party during his tenure, its stance on civil rights and affirmative action, the anti-corruption campaign and organizational issues within the AFL-CIO. The reference to UE and the RWDSU seems out of place too; that's CIO history, from a few years before Meany succeeded Green, and not worth including in this article. Italo Svevo 04:20, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'd temporarily disagree that events prior to 1952 are outside the scope of a Meany biography. The CIO stuff is out of place, sure. But William Green's health was so poor in the last four or five years of his life that Green had turned day-to-day operation of the AFL over to Meany. From what I can ascertain from a surface reading of just a few sources, Meany's presidency really began a half-decade prior to his actual presidency. - Tim1965 22:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm no expert. I just came to the page in search of a quote I recalled and was shocked at the brevity and sketchiness of the page. This was a guy whose face was on the nightly news and whose name was on the front page of the papers pretty much daily for decades. He had huge power and influence. Google turns up a single quotation (the one about what plumbers charge) for a man who had a great deal to say and often said it well and memorably. The specific quote I was looking for (and I hope it ends up on this page if anyone can track it down) was to the effect that he didn't care if a [specific boondoggle of a cost-overrun military plane] rolled out of the Boeing factory and straight into the ocean as long as building it kept 50,000 of his union members employed (bad paraphrase fifty-some years after the fact). Dmargulis (talk) 00:50, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Upgraded importance

I'm upgrading the importance to high. Meany's presidency marks the beginning of the "modern" AFL and AFL-CIO, and his actions and policies led directly to the events of the Kirkland presidency and the 1995 Sweeney revolt. There are superb biographies and other sources out there about Meany's presidency, and there is no reason why this shouldn't be a priority. - Tim1965 22:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Jefferson Cowie, author of Stayin' Alive: The 1970s and the Last Days of the Working Class, say that Meany's decision not to support McGovern was the turning point in the relationship between Labor and the Left in the US. Almost universally the Labor and the Left wing in politics are allies -- sometimes they are just about indistinguishable. With the McGovern candidacy in the US, however, the Left and the Labor movement had a messy divorce and this unusual situation is still with us 40 years later. (See Cowie's Salon interview.)

By this light Meany emerges as one of the shapers of the modern political landscape -- an extremely important man. --Jeffreykegler (talk) 01:20, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I removed this tirade. We have policies about due weight, NPOV, and reliable sources. The Monthly Review Press and New Left Books/Verso don't meet the standards of reliable sources.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 12:31, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Tenure

Meany was a great believer in cooperation of labor and capital. During his presidency, the AFL and then the AFL-CIO supported anticommunist policies. Trade-unions deemed leftist, including the United Electrical Workers and the Retail Wholesale and Department Store Employees of America, were dismissed from the CIO by the early 1950s. AFL-CIO unions then cooperated with employers to raid and decertify leftist unions. Meany was a strong advocate of the Vietnam War.

Meany was friends with Jay Lovestone, the former Communist Party USA official who became anti-communist. Lovestone established the Free Trade Union Committee (now known as the American Center for International Labor Solidarity) as the overseas organizing agent of the AFL. During Meany's tenure, Lovestone worked to establish non-communist and pro-American unions around the world. During the course of this work, the AFL collaborated with Latin American dictatorships against communist, radical, or opposition trade unions.

He is famous for having said toward the end of his tenure that he had "never walked a picket line in his life." He was succeeded by Lane Kirkland.

On December 6, 1963, he was presented with the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Lyndon Johnson.

Expansion

I have written a major expansion of this article in my sandbox and have just merged it. Comments and improvements are welcomed. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:57, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I think that you did a fine job. You can see my from my edits specific concerns.

I would question the statement "he liked to boast that he never walked a picket line". Do we have citations where he said that 2 times? (In general, strikes are failures of communication/information. If one could predict the outcome of a strike, then both parties would have an incentive to reach that outcome by bargaining (and avoiding a strike). See the Handbook of Labor Economics, vol. 1 I believe, which has a chapter on strikes.) This is something said with disdain/contempt by New Leftists, of course. Does it really belong in an encyclopedia article? Is it so important?

 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:57, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

The presentation of Meany as an apologist for capital is one-sided. There are plenty of discussions where Meany identifies himself as a social democrat or democratic socialist: See the quotation in Michael Harrington's Socialism for example.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 10:00, 18 November 2011 (UTC) There is a discussion with quotations of [Michael [Harrington]]'s various views on Meany in the SDUSA criticism of Harrington, after he resigned in 1973, in the article posted by Carrite (and a great librarian!).  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:57, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Suggestions

Should possibly mention in some way that Meany kind of inaugurated the bureaucratic phase of labor unionism in the United States, with a strong emphasis on consolidating and institutionalizing gains already made, but relatively little focus on explaining larger goals (beyond immediate improvements in working conditions and wages), relatively little attempt to reach out to new populations of workers not included in the traditional unions, and relatively little emphasis on explaining to the increasing number of people who considered themselves to be solidly middle class why unions were still relevant to them. That was a part of why U.S. unions as a whole went into a strong decline beginning right around the time he resigned/died...

Also, Meany was not a neanderthal for opposing gay marriage in 1972 (an issue which very few people took seriously at that time). AnonMoos (talk) 15:36, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi AnonMoos,

Like your name!

Gompers built the AFL to survive in the inhospitable U.S., where the ship of socialism ran aground on shoals of roast beef and mashed potatoes. I've never read any RS refer Meany as the originator of what is often called "business unionism" by Marxists. I can take you on a tour of closed auto-plants in the MidWest to suggest at least one alternative explanation of decline in unions (!) Adam Przeworski had a student, Goldfeld I think, who found more political explanations.

You are welcome to draft additions, based on in-line citations to reliable sources, here, and get feedback. Cullen328 has improved the article to B-level now, and so we should be careful to document additions with reliable sources.

Thanks,  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 19:13, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I meant that little was done to expand union support or membership beyond the the traditional hard-core base, so that when this base was eroded by the decline in U.S. manufacturing etc., there was no plan B, and the trajectory of union numbers was pretty much constantly downhill from that time on. Obviously Meany couldn't have single-handedly reversed overall long-term economic and political trends, but it seems like a lot more could have been done in other ways to at least lessen the decline somewhat, with a little bit of imagination and willingness to work with various groups. I'm only going on what I remember reading in the 1980s (would have no idea how to re-find what I remember reading back then)... AnonMoos (talk) 20:36, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Since Sweeney took office, the AFL-CIO increased the resources devoted to organizing and partisan electoral-campaigns (and not spending them on other member services). Has that made a dent in the decline of unionization? Slowed it, even? Have the member unions just shifted the burden of organizing to the confederation? Goldfeld found that management opposition to unions became more intense, on top of and perhaps even more important than deindustrialization.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:16, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

DYK?

Cullen328, you should suggest a "hook" for a Did You Know? I'll nominate it for you, if you haven't had experience.

BTW, somebody should review the DYK nomination for Constantinos A. Patrides,

Did you know

... that Constantinos A. Patrides, the author of Milton and the Christian tradition, earned a medal for heroism for his boyhood service with the Greek Resistance against the German Occupation?

a Renaissance scholar who (as a boy) ran messages for the Greek Resistance against the Axis Occupation of Greece, so earning a heroism medal from the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:19, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

How about: Did you know that AFL-CIO president George Meany described his trade union federation's stand on the Vietnam war as "neither hawk nor dove nor chicken" in 1967?

I would be grateful if you would make the DYK nomination. I understand that folks are expected to review some nominations, and I am not quite sure what that entails. Perhaps you could give me a few tips for the future. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 21:43, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Lead

Kiefer Wolfowitz, I plan to reduce the length of the lead. I am not aware that the AFL was ever a part of the World Federation of Trade Unions. I thought they had boycotted it from its founding. Am I wrong? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 21:46, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I may have been wrong. Continue flying your eagle course!  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:04, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Mike Quill

This is cited properly, but is it really worth putting in a short biography of Meany?

"Mike Quill of the Transport Workers Union of America also fought the merger, saying that it amounted to a capitulation to the "racism, racketeering and raiding" of the AFL.

"

Why not quote other Communists, recently former Communists, and Trotskyists? Much as I like the Transit Workers of NYC, this is hardly a national labor leader.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 08:04, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Quill broke with the Communist Party in 1948, well before the AFL-CIO merger. The TWU by the 1940s was clearly a national union affiliate of the CIO, representing transit workers in many cities other than New York. I chose to quote Quill because he was the president of TWU for many years, and a close ally of New York mayor Robert F. Wagner, Jr. at the time of the merger. I don't think he can be so easily dismissed. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:14, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Preliminary thoughts on GA potential

This article appears to me very close to ready for GA--close enough that you could go ahead and nominate it right now. The sourcing and writing both look good and this seems likely to cover the "main aspects".

A few suggestions:

• Ideally, the lead should touch on each section of the article. I'm also not sure I see a citation for "reputation for personal integrity" later on in the body, but I may have missed it--I'm working very quickly. (Perhaps it can be inferred by the Hoffa conflict?)
• Try to reduce the number of very short sections and one-paragraph sentences per WP:LAYOUT. (part of criterion 1b)
• "New Politics" needs DAB
• The bare URL for ref 29 should be filled out. Technically, a bare URL isn't a problem for GA status, but if it goes dead and has no other information, it's no longer considered verifiable, and GA status could be revoked.

Thanks for your work on this important figure! -- Khazar2 (talk) 11:37, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

1972 Presidential election

Maybe this is not the best place to ask this, but I recall a political cartoon of Nixon and McGovern playing chess. Meany had just flipped over the board throwing pieces everywhere. This came out right after meany had announced he was not supporting either candidate. I have been looking for this and thought it might be a nice addition to the article. Anyone have suggestions where to find it? Jokem (talk) 15:55, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Improving this article further

Noting here the changes I made to the article, mainly to add in some of the biographical and other sources, plus some more 'legacy' material. Pinging User:Cullen328, as the following would help take the article forward further:

• Meany, George by David Brody from American National Biography
• Joseph C. Goulden, Meany: The Unchallenged Strong Man of American Labor (1972)
• Archie Robinson, George Meany and His Times (1981)
• Philip Taft, The AFL from the Death of Gompers to the Merger (1959)
• Robert H. Zieger, American Workers, American Unions, 1920-1985 (1986)

The latter four are part of the bibliography recommended by Brody. Carcharoth (talk) 20:58, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your work to improve this article, Carcharoth. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:13, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

No problem. I managed to read the article several times and not see this error, which someone else was kind enough to point out to me. Amazing how easy it is to miss things like that (it was only present from 6 July). Carcharoth (talk) 11:54, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

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Cartoon

I recall a political cartoon appearing about the time Meany announced he would not support Nixon or McGovern. Caricatures of Nixon and McGovern were sitting opposite each other with a chessboard between them. Shows Meany walking away confidently with the chessboard behind him, flipped over. I thought that might be a useful addition to the article, but I cannot find it anywhere. I wonder if someone here has better resources? Jokem (talk) 04:52, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Jokem, not only would you need to find this cartoon, but it must also be either freely licensed under an acceptable Creative Commons license, or it must be in the public domain. Plus, there must be independnt commentary about the cartoon. Good luck. Cullen328 (talk) 05:03, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

I have already tried to find this with no luck. I was hoping someone here might have a clue. Jokem (talk) 03:40, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

2nd paragraph too sketchy, even for the introduction.

The 2nd paragraph is too sketchy, even for the introduction. "At a young age," "12 years later," "as an officer" leave out too much information. It’s the introduction, yes, but this is too brief. Wis2fan (talk) 03:44, 16 August 2024 (UTC)