Talk:Beijing cuisine

English Language Naming Conventions

On this page there are a lot of improvised "translations" of the unique Chinese food names. Most of these are what would be considered "Chinglish." I would propose that we remove the English "names" and instead append a short description on the end. The reasons I offer are as follows: 1. The content is not encyclopedic. Often these terms are coined by the user on the spot, rather than representing some common usage. Many phrases appear to be coined on the spot, such as "Mustardy," which I am fairly sure is not a word. 2. The content doesn't follow a consistent pattern. There are many mixed frames of reference here. For instance, sometimes we use antiquated American naming conventions, such as using Wade Gilles for Peking, while at other times we use Pin Yin, other times they are translated directly into English, or even given in Cantonese, such as Wontons. 3. The attempt to translate creates misleading correlations such as "Chinese Fajitas" or "Chinese Pancakes." Although these Chinese dishes may bear some extremely superficial resemblance to the foods mentioned, that is merely coincidental. The phrasing "Chinese Pancakes" establishes a POV frame of reference in which the bing is simply a Chinese version of the well known Euro-American dish. This implies some sort of cultural hegemony that does not in fact exist. 4. The creation of English names serves no functional purpose. If you were to order these dishes in China, then it is the Chinese names that would be important. In the event that there are some standard translations that appear in international Chinese restaurants, such as Peking Duck, that should be noted, but in no circumstance should we simply offer an awkward list of non-authoritative translations. It gives this entire article an extremely amateur feeling. Ouyangwulong (talk) 15:23, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Fajita

"Chinese fajitas (???? -- not to be confused with ??, which is fried)" Sounds to me like you're talking about bing (my character recognition no longer works) and I'm not sure calling them fajitas is appropriate - flatbread or pancakes with fillings seems to be more NPOV (fajitas is a very Tex-Mex term) to me.

I agree. Not only is this totally ridiculous and misleading, but all the other weird "translations" are not particularly respectable, and POV laden. I've posted my suggestion above. Ouyangwulong (talk) 15:23, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Manchurian cuisine

Is Mandarin cuisine a mixture of local Peking cuisine and Manchurian cuisine? — Instantnood 02:12, May 30, 2005 (UTC)

They are two completely different things. They are no exact definition of what are "the" absolute examples of mandarin cuisine since Beijing in imperial times was the showcase for cooks from all over China, and the styles of their food varies. Still not sure what you are asking though. --67.2.149.172 08:44, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Mandarin cuisine???

Never ever heard of it. Who named it? Should, IMO, be moved to Peking cusine. Mandarin can refer to an offical, or to Standard Chinese (Putonghua), or to the whole dialect group on which Standard Chinese is based (guanhua). But the capital cuisine cannot be referred to as Mandarin. What could be discussed is if a National cuisine, mixing freely dishes and influces from different regional schools, has emerged in big cities like Beijing, Shanghai etc, but this should then be called so, not "Mandarin". Especially since so much influence came from the so-called new Cantonese cuisine in the 1980-1990s. This new hybid should then be separated from a Peking cuisine, which until very recently included so very few of the things offered in Beijing today. Berox 23:18, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Mandarin is a misnomer. It is an artificial construction dividing Chinese people into two groups "Mandarins" and "Cantonese." This, of course, is totally ridiculous to anyone who knows China or the Chinese language. There is no group that is called the "mandarins" in Chinese, just as there is no place in China that is "Mandarin" and there is no cuisine that is "Mandarin." The term comes from the Portuguese word "Mandare" meaning "Commander" which they used to refer to the Manchu administrators they encountered in Macao, in contrast to the Cantonese-speaking locals. However, this became a catch all phrase for "Northern Chinese" during the 19th century, and finally during the Cold War, it came to refer to the "Mainland" (PRC) as opposed to Hong Kong and the Republic of China. Mandarin is further misleading because although China is a multi-cultural and multi-ethnic country, the term "Mandarin" implies that the people of China are divided by the "Mandarin" versus "Cantonese" dichotomy. In fact, the "Mandarins" and "Cantonese" are both Han, except for in the archaic sense in which Mandarin referred to Manchus. Furthermore, this overstates the significance of the Canotnese in Chinese society, because they are but one of five major groups among the Han. By suggesting that China is divided between the Cantonese and the other Chinese (mandarins?) then we have over essentialized the complex demographics of China, and have also over-stated the role that Guang Dong plays in China. It is more clearly a representation of the uninformed Western view of China, wherein there was Guangdong, where we had access to China, and the rest, which remained essentially closed.

No respectable, contemporary and authoritative book on Chinese history and culture would use the term Mandarin, and neither should wikipedia use the word "Mandarin" because it is a mark of early Orientalist ignorance. As far as I know, the only thing that can be properly referred to as a "Mandarin" is the small, sweet variety of tangerine indigenous to China. Ouyangwulong (talk) 15:23, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Cecilia Chiang and the Invention of "Mandarin" Cuisine

Ouyangwulong, you are right on the money about how impossible it is to trace "Mandarin" cuisine back to China. (And thank you for that learned linguistic analysis.) As a professor/author who publishes on Asian America, I can tell you that what you're uncovering here is a typical feature of American ethnic culture-- an "invention of history." Cecilia Chiang's brilliant invention, and marketing (aided by her sister Sophie) of an upscale, expensive "Mandarin" cuisine for her San Francisco restaurant "The Mandarin"-- as an alternate to the inexpensive Cantonese fare that America had grown up on-- was a great success, documented in her two books. Here's some of the Amazon description. You should look this book up. Fascinating case study. If you get my point, you'll see this entire article is methodologically naive, and has to be re-thought.

The Seventh Daughter: My Culinary Journey from Beijing to San Francisco (Hardcover) by Cecilia Chiang (Author), Lisa Weiss (Author), Leigh Beisch (Photographer), Alice Waters (Foreword)

Editorial Reviews From Publishers Weekly A foreword by legendary chef Alice Waters hints that this volume is filled with authentic recipes, cultural stories and food memories. And indeed, Chiang, the one-time proprietor of San Francisco's famed Mandarin restaurant—which is widely credited with introducing Americans to real regional Chinese cuisine—presents a rich, heartfelt volume filled with recipes and stories from her life. There are recipes from the original Mandarin, of course: its Pot Stickers, Sichuan Spicy Eggplant, and Beggar's Chicken, which Chiang says is a favorite of Williams-Sonoma founder Chuck Williams. There are also recipes from the Mandarin in Beverly Hills (such as Sesame Shrimp) and many recipes from Chiang's family. Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

Product Description A pioneer in the food world, Cecilia Chiang introduced Americans to authentic northern Chinese cuisine at her San Francisco restaurant, the Mandarin, in 1961, earning the adoration of generations of diners, including local luminaries such as Marion Cunningham, Ruth Reichl, and Chuck Williams.

From the Publisher

•  The signature recipes and extraordinary story of Cecilia Chiang, the grande dame of Chinese cooking in America. * 

About the Author In 1961 CECILIA CHIANG opened the Mandarin, which became a San Francisco institution. In 1974 she wrote the cookbook The Mandarin Way, and her career blossomed to include television appearances, cooking demonstrations, and contributions to international magazines and newspapers. She consults for popular Bay Area restaurants, including Betelnut and Shanghai 1930. Chiang lives in the San Francisco Bay Area. Profhum (talk) 08:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Tanghulu

Shouldn't tanghulu be added in the list of prominent Beijing dishes? Badagnani 04:50, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Fuling jiabing

Should Fuling jiabing be mentioned? Badagnani 04:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Classification of dishes

I feel very impelled to suggest the classification of the dishes listed in this page as they originate from different backgrounds, e.g., Ta Si Mi(它似蜜) and Bao Du are Muslim dishes(If i'm not wrong). This simple meat/veggie classification is not good enough considering the diversity of Beijing cuisine. Jing.t86 22:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

This list is highly inaccurate. Many dishes here are considered Mandarine (or not), but not of Beijing origin. Ma hua, for example, is a famous Tianjin small dish. There are many such inaccuracies in this list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.251.2.225 (talk) 21:51, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Small Dishes

must be mentioned somewhere as they are exceedingly popular on the streets and are frequently marketed as 北京特产. ---何献龙4993 (talk) 01:44, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

"Ghosts fried in oil"

I don't know the name of this in Chinese, but it is supposedly a street dish made from peanut flour. Anyone?--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 15:50, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Beggar's chicken

Isn't Beggar's Chicken a dish from southern China? Speaking as a native of Hangzhou. Woshiyiweizhongguoren (🇨🇳) 22:52, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Research Process and Methodology - FA22 - Sect 201 - Thu

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 September 2022 and 8 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jaynean (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Jaynean (talk) 05:54, 3 December 2022 (UTC)