Talk:Jolie Gabor

RfC: What year of birth should be used in the article?

There is some disagreement among us with what birth year should be used in the article and what is considered a reliable source. Details are below under Year of Birth. MagnoliaSouth ^(talk) 19:19, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

• Unclear. From the sources mentioned in the Discussion, and from what looked up online, I see that there can be no certainty as to Jolie Gabor's date of birth. And the article should reflect the uncertainty by stating, probably in a footnote, the different birthdates that have been given. It will have to do until the real thing comes along. -The Gnome (talk) 20:14, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Reliability of available sources: Cindy Adams is a gossip columnist and, as such, not a Reliable Source. The Palm Springs Cemetery District, like most cemeteries in the world, is not obligated to look up or verify the deceased's birthdate, which is provided by undertaker or family - so, there is no inherent reliability. The ideal source would be the Hungarian Certificate of Birth or a news item originating from Hungary. Paging (again) Hungarian Wikipedians, szükségünk van a segítségedre!...-The Gnome (talk) 20:14, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

• Unclear Until reliable evidence is produced the article should be left as it is, demonstrating the uncertainty of the lady's birth date. Jack1956 (talk) 15:07, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

• Unclear Per Jack1956. Hipocrite (talk) 19:59, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

• Unclear as per above - I am personally loathe to leave out a birthdate, but I hate not having reliable sources even more. The article will have to stay as is. On a side note, has anyone considered contacting someone at the Hungarian Wikipedia? They might have more resources than are available to us. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 19:34, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Cause of Death?

Although she was over 100, what was her official cause of death? Simply old age? And how is it that she was unaware of her daughter's death two years earlier? Was she senile, or was this information intentionally kept from her? 98.221.121.72 (talk) 01:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Dates and daughters

There appears to be an error on this page because it says she died two years after the death of her "eldest daughter" and give the link, but that daughter died the same year, according to her own page info. Perhaps the reference is supposed to be a reference to her youngest daughter Eva. I am no Gabor family specialist, so could someone who is please figure out which date or reference is in error and correct it? Carinamc (talk) 02:50, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Unaware of daughters death?

How could she have been unaware of her daughter's death if she attended the funeral?

http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-31749_162-10004252-6.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.210.47.219 (talk) 16:06, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

She didn't attend, that was a mistake -- the person holding Zsa Zsa's hand is Magda Gabor not Jolie. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 17:47, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

She lived a fairly isolated life, in a house perched on a cliff in a neighborhood so exclusive that most people living over 4 blocks from it don't even know it exists. The blue Rolls parked in front of the house for 30 years had no engine or transmission. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.215.115.31 (talk) 14:32, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Year of birth

The only year of birth which has even marginal backing by some objective source is 1896 as per the text of the article which indicates that is what her Budapest birth certificate states. I am not entirely satisfied or happy, however that is apparently the most satisfactorily researched year. I myself thought Jolie Gabor was born in 1894 because Cindy Adams stated in a column after Jolie Gabor's death that Jolie was 102 when she died. However, I have read enough of Cindy Adams' columns to know that she is not entirely reliable as a source. She often rounds off or even exaggerates. Given Adams' own discomfort with her revealing her own age (fair enough), she really cannot be relied upon to give anyone else's. Particularly since the book is based on a conversation with Jolie herself! I also do not like the fact that the sources which continually revert Jolie's year of birth back to 1894 are all anonymous IP unregistered users who have provided no backup whatsoever. I am going to be watching this page. If the anonymous vandalism continues I will seek to have this page protected. If anyone has any real solid evidence regarding Jolie Gabor's year of birth, name at birth, etc., then register and provide it. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 13:05, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

• NOTE: If any Hungarian Wikipedians read this — it will be greatly appreciated if someone could scan copies of Magdolna Gabor and Jancsi (or Janszieka) Tilleman (or Tillemann or Kende) birth certificates and upload here. Birth certificates in Hungary are a matter of public record as I understand it. Thanks in advance to any intrepid do-gooders. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 13:05, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

It so happens that I'm currently looking at the "Interments of Interest" from the Palm Springs Cemetery District. The DOB they have, which I've incorporated into the article, is 1900. Unless other editors have a better WP:RS, I hope we can leave it as 1900. --S. Rich (talk) 07:04, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

There is no way we can leave it at 1900. If you happened to read the text, she married in 1914 and gave birth to her first daughter in 1915. If you check her IMDb profile her year of birth is given as 1894, which is closer to the reality. Let's be honest, she and her daughters were less than honest re years of birth, so most sources re Jolie Gabor's year of birth, including the Social Security Death Index, to which she submitted a false year of birth (just like Joan Crawford and Lynn Fontanne did), are inaccurate. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 11:19, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes way we can leave it as 1900. What about WP:V, not truth? The PSCD is a public entity (established IAW California's Special District Law), has historical roots (back to 1894 with the founding of Welwood Murray Cemetery). and it maintains the grave of many other notables. As such, PSCD is a much better WP:RS for this particular bit of data. The "conflicting" 1900 date allows to two other possibilities: 1. the other dates are not accurate (nor backed up by RS), and 2. she really did have her first child at age 15 (girls were having sex back then just as they do now). Since we do not have a reference actually quoting the SSN index and since IMDB is not a RS, the 1900 date is the best one to use.--S. Rich (talk) 15:44, 30 June 2011 (UTC)16:11, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Good Rms125a@hotmail.com! In my opinion, you should provide a reliable source and be done with it. The New York Times is a reliable source and if you cannot come up with a better one, nor cite where Piet Hein Honig has said 1896, then you have no source, and the speculation should go. It's that simple, again in my opinion which may not matter. I think this should be resolved by a request for comments. I'll do that now. MagnoliaSouth ^(talk) 19:13, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

PS -- We have her eldest daughter born in 1918, again based on the PSCD RS. So 1900 is actually a more creditable date.--S. Rich (talk) 16:16, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

The PSCD is wrong again, and based on false SSDI (SS Death Index) data. Magda could not have been born in 1918 -- she peddled that year of birth, although her younger sister, Zsa Zsa (the middle daughter) was born in 1917, and the youngest of three, Eva, 1919, making 1918 impossible for Magda's year of birth. Jolie and her daughters lied like rugs about their ages. What's so hard to get about that? Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 12:14, 1 July 2011 (UTC). Also, this source cites 1894 as Jolie's year of birth. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 13:09, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

But then this reference [1] from Zsa Zsa's BLP gives a YOB as 1919. (Although the dates in her BLP remain unedited.) So she preserves her status as the middle sib. If the SSDI info is false, then the WP:BURDEN is shifted to show how or where it is false. Again, PSCD as a government entity is more reliable. Rather than citing Daniel Day, who posted lots of photos of faux jewels and who is perhaps paraphrasing Gaboralia, could we have a cite from the actual book? (Day's entry looks like a blog. ImageEvent allows users to post whatever they like. [2]) That would help.--S. Rich (talk) 16:03, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Srich - the reference you cite for 1919 year of birth is from a source (Film Reference.com) which is just as unreliable as IMDb, if not more so, and is constantly being updated. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 23:25, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Srich: "Again, PSCD as a government entity is more reliable." NO, it is not, evidently. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 23:22, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Srich: "Rather than citing Daniel Day" -- I don't know who that is offhand, but if that source is the one which provides the biodata re Jolie Gabor's WW2 travails and her arrival in the U.S. on December 31, 1945, it sounds pretty accurate to me. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 23:22, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Also, Zsa Zsa was born in 1917, per virtually all sources reporting on her, which give her age as 94, and have done since her birthday in February. Secondly, even if Zsa Zsa were to have been born in 1919 -- which she wasn't -- how could her younger sister, Eva, have been born in 1919 also. They weren't twins -- how could Zsa Zsa have been born on February 6, 1919 and Eva on February 11, 1919?? (Eva gave her year of birth as 1921 for many years but when she died and after her death the true year as 1919 came out, confirmed by the Social Security Death Index). Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 23:22, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

RMS, we are finally reaching the last of the Gabor Ladies -- Eva.

You say she was born in 1919, but the NYT obit which I just posted has her at age 74 in 1995. This gives a YOB of 1921.

So, again, the sequence supporting my year count is confirmed. E.g.: Jolie YOB -- 1900 (per PSCD); daughter Magda YOB -- 1918 (per PSCD); daughter Zsa Zsa YOB -- 1919 (per the FilmReference.com page); and daughter Eva YOB -- 1921 (per NYT Obit).

The continual updating of material on film reference.com does not mean anything -- what are we doing right now? We are updating the info posted on WP!

Perhaps the NYT Obit on Eva is incorrect. (But NYT is almost per se WP:RS!) However, the rootsweb.com page on Eva does not have a "V" or "P" notation for the 1919 date. This mean means they have neither "(V)=(Verified) Report verified with a family member or someone acting on behalf of a family member" nor "(P)=(Proof) Death Certificate Observed" the date they give.

Regarding "Daniel Day" -- that is the name posted at the very top of the "Jewels" blog which you cited.

And you requested that someone in Hungary scan the birth certs for the ladies. May I suggest you obtain the SS-5 forms on Eva, Madga & Jolie -- they are available at here. (Oops! rootsweb.com calls the form an "SS-5". The SSA.gov page calls it a "Form SSA-711 Internet Request". I guess rootsweb was wrong.)

RMS, sooner or later I'm sure we can settle down on which RS we should use. I hope you enjoying the stuff I provide to chew on. And thanks for a very interesting discussion! --S. Rich (talk) 01:12, 2 July 2011 (UTC) Actually, RMS, I'm looking now at some more NYT articles -- they are giving dates for Zsa Zsa which put her YOB as 1917. The NYT does not have much on Magda. But the rootsweb.ancestory.com results on Magda come up with 1918 as the YOB, and more importantly with a "V". 01:58, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

" May I suggest you obtain the SS-5 forms on Eva, Madga & Jolie -- they are available at here. (Oops! rootsweb.com calls the form an "SS-5". The SSA.gov page calls it a "Form SSA-711 Internet Request". I guess rootsweb was wrong.)" -- No, thanks, as the years provided to the Social Security Administration by Jolie and Magda were incorrect. I am surprised you would find the actual birth certificates (or info contained therein) less reliable than the Social Security Death Index, which is quite reliable (I rely on it a lot), but not if the recipient has not provided accurate info. (as I have pointed out) or if they mess up (i.e. I know someone who was born January 17, and they have January 18, typo or whatever). As far as Eva, we will have to agree to disagree. I suggest we leave the Gabor pages as they are for now, after I finish tweaking, in line with the above to illustrate the discrepancies and disputes re years of birth. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 17:24, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the present first para is the best approach, except that the source needs to be added for the 1894 date. No secondary source is fully reliable for birthyear, and even official records can have errors. Going by experience with my extended family, I'd prefer government records made at the time of birth to anything recorded later, including later government records. But if another ordinarily reliable source like the NYT has a different date, it should be given, if only to avoid confusion because that's the date most people will have seen. DGG ( talk ) 16:48, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

There is no reason that the DoB cannot be given as a range, or footnoted or both. Rich Farmbrough, 11:41, 20 October 2011 (UTC).

Death paragraph is confusing

I rewrote the paragraph under Death, and I'm still not convinced it's done well. The problem is that it read like a book of trivia. For example, as it was written before, it listed Eva's date of death which shouldn't be included in a paragraph that is about Jolie's death. If the user is curious about that, they can visit Eva's wiki page. Also I don't like the mention of her sole grandchild. That should be part of the article when discussing her family. I don't know, I think the whole paragraph needs to go entirely and be rewritten. Her death should only include information about her death, when, where, why etc. I have to agree too with the person who posted Cause of Death. That part where it says she was unaware of her daughter's death leaves no explanation. It should be stricken entirely in my opinion, but instead I tagged it asking for a citation. MagnoliaSouth ^(talk) 19:55, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Jolie's correct maiden name!!!

Jolie Gabor gave her father's surname as Kende and her daughters Magda and Eva Gabor gave their mother's maiden name as Kende, as per California Deaths, 1940-1997. Family Tree Legends Records Collection (Online Database). Pearl Street Software, 2004-05.

This just goes to show that "autobiographer" Cindy Adams is completely unreliable. I realized that long ago just by reading her columns in the New York Post. Quis separabit? 01:28, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm giving Tilleman as Gabor's maiden name; please see the notations for this.Kitchawan (talk) 06:29, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Jolie Gabor, by Jolie Gabor as told to Cindy Adams (Mason Charter, 1975), clearly states that Jolie's maiden name was Tilleman. She says that her father was Josef Tilleman and that her mother was Franceska "Francie" Reinherz. Like the book and its co-author or not, that's what the authorized memoir says, and surely Jolie Gabor would have known her own maiden name.Kitchawan (talk) 06:41, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Jolie Gabor, by Jolie Gabor as told to Cindy Adams (Mason Charter, 1975), also clearly states that KENDE was the surname of Franceska Reinherz Tilleman's second husband, whom she married after Josef Tilleman's death and whom she abandoned before the honeymoon, fleeing back to Budapest and never seeing him again.Kitchawan (talk) 07:00, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

I would feel on safer ground if we would leave her birth name as 'Jansci per her own memoirs. Surely should have known her own name. In the same memoir she states that Jansci is Hungarian for Johnny or Little John, since her father wanted a boy. The use of the name Johanna on her eventual Portuguese passport might well be camouflage, subterfuge or anything else. Until that is determined, I think multiple uses of Jansci, per the subject of this article, outweighs one use of Johanna. And again, while I realize that some contributors do not trust Cindy Adams as a source, it must be assumed with some strength and commitment that the subject of an "as told to" memoir approved the use of her names, first, middle, last, married, and otherwise.Kitchawan (talk) 15:27, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Agreed (by me anyway); you have convinced me. Quis separabit? 21:14, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Jolie's sisters

This extract seems to indicate that Jolie's sisters survived and died in Australia, although the years of birth of Jolie's mother and grandmother are insane and virtually impossible to be accurate. Any other ideas or comments re reliability? Thanks. Quis separabit? 12:46, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Memoirist?

With great respect, Rms125a, I can’t see that she was exactly notable for her autobiographical writings.

As it says in the article, Jolie ‘lent her name’ to two books, one of them an as-told-to memoir, co-authored by a family friend (‘Gabor approached Adams to write the book...’), the other a Hungarian cookbook ‘written with’ two other people. So she’s hardly Madame de Sévigné.

I won’t revert at this point. But you may like to consider doing so. Valetude (talk) 16:04, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

I note this post from Valetude is over a year old, Rms125a@hotmail.com. I have to agree: if Gabor wrote nothing more than what's listed above, those two books don't make anyone a memoirist. Further, I've noted the use of a blog as source for the article subject's birthdate? That's not a reliable source. Can we please discuss these two points? Thanks,-- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:21, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

I see that the 'memoirist' category has been duly deleted. I thought it logical to delete the various 'writer' categories too. Valetude (talk) 23:48, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Other relationships

It' impossible for her to have a relationship with Mustada Kemal Atatürk. He died in 1938 when she was 21 years old. She didn't come to Turkey, neither did Aratürk go to the USA. However she had a relationship with the Turkish actor Muzaffer Tema. 212.253.204.216 (talk) 11:14, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Nazi occupation, Budapest, Gabor parents: 8 July 1944

Jolie Gabor; Vilmos Gábor; History of the Jews in Portugal#Portuguese Ambassador in Budapest, 1944; Carlos Sampaio Garrido#Gabor family

Diplomatic telegrams regarding Gabors in Budapest and Switzerland :

• "Folder 11 Gabor, Vilmos (Mr. and Mrs.)" (PDF). Franklin D. Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum. Retrieved 30 April 2023. (1944-07-08): Vilmos Gabor and Ganka Gabor. They were formerly owners of one of the prominent jewelry stores in Budapest, and we are informed that the Portuguese Embassy ... (1944-07-11): Information received here to the effect that Portugese legation Budapest has extended refuge to Vilmos and Ganka Gabor, Hungarian Jews who are the parents of Mrs. Conrad N. Hilton the wife of an American citizen. The Portugese Minister Budapest is reported to have arrived in Switzerland with another daughter Magda Bichovska.

<ref name="fdrlibrary/wrb0210">{{cite web |title=Folder 11 Gabor, Vilmos (Mr. and Mrs.) |url=http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/_resources/images/wrb/wrb0210.pdf |website=[[Franklin D. Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum]] |access-date=30 April 2023 |quote=(1944-07-08): Vilmos Gabor and Ganka Gabor. They were formerly owners of one of the prominent jewelry stores in Budapest, and we are informed that the Portuguese Embassy ... (1944-07-11): Information received here to the effect that Portugese legation Budapest has extended refuge to Vilmos and Ganka Gabor, Hungarian Jews who are the parents of Mrs. Conrad N. Hilton the wife of an American citizen. The Portugese Minister Budapest is reported to have arrived in Switzerland with another daughter Magda Bichovska.}}</ref>

....0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 07:11, 30 April 2023 (UTC)