Talk:New York City Subway nomenclature

old comments

You like so far, SPUI? :) -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 05:57, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Not bad; I'll probably wait until you've done more before editing it again, to avoid edit conflicts. --SPUI 06:25, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm now writing off line, so you can edit if you like, but it might be a good idea to edit in small chunks to minimize the possibility of conflict when I add a section. BTW, I wrote this because I was starting to explain these points on the project talk page, but figured WTF, why do all that writing for a talk page when it could be read by anyone in a permanent article. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 06:32, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

One suggestion I have is to have the first section be about the current system, and then everything after dealing with the history. --SPUI 06:39, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, I only have the modern section to go, and it flows as a narrative with what went before. But it does make sense to tell people what the current system is first, so if you have a way to summarize current practice in an opening section, or whatever, that would probably be good. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 07:16, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Directional Nomenclature: R-train to 95th Street Brooklyn -- I've never heard this called "an Uptown R train". Where is that contention from? Also, I've never heard (in extensive Brooklyn-Manhattan subway riding) any train announced as "City-bound", though apparently that was the case in the BMT era. As long as I've been a subway rider (since 1995) it's without exception "Manhattan- (or Bronx-)bound". (Alan)

Those "Other" Letters

Letter "P" for BMT Culver was NEVER on the drawing board. It is a rumor started by those who probably weren't around at the time. Say it often enough and people believe it might have been so.

• "I" was nixed because of its similarity to the number one.
• "O" because of confusion with "zero," though the MTA has recently been showing around an "O" train as a promotion for NYC getting the Olympics.
• "P" didn't make the cut for the most obvious reason of all--its mildly rude implications, made worse by the fact that a local at the time would have been PP. But more recently they did talk of a temporary "P" train to provide service from Jamaica to Penn Station in the event of an Amtrak strike.

Note that for the Second Avenue Subway, they've skipped over "P" again, though it's right next to the "Q" which is also supposed to run up 2nd, going straight to reviving "T".

The BMT Culver was never, ever intended to be re-mainlined. It had only one way to go, even though it went there about a decade later than expected. The TA even went to the extent of discontinuing the previous shuttle service to 36/4, and making the 9th Avenue terminal single tracked.

"P=Culver" is only for fantasy maps. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 09:23, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hah, understood. I wonder if they put K along with the J to prevent the possible coexistence of K and KK. Meh, it would be nice to have access to records about why they made their decisions, not just what was decided. It would also be nice to have the exact colors of the current services, as is nicely provided for the old ones at [1]. But that would make things too easy. --SPUI (talk) 10:01, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, in 1960 they weren't too into systems analysis and information theory. I know about the O,I,P stuff first hand but not why they chose the other letters other than the obvious: J was a natural for Jamaica, M for Myrtle and K and L finished the Eastern Division, then they went to N for Southern Division and so on. I can find no logic at all to the Southern Division letters.

You can find out the exact colors if you can glom a recent copy of the Graphic Standards Manual (or find someone who has one). I don't, they're like $100 each.

As to the K-KK thing, it has also been argued that they had to make the K a single letter when it replaced the AA because it now ran through Harlem and would have been too close for comfort as KK; but I'm sure that's another urban myth, as all lines went single letter at the same time. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 22:33, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There's the strange KK-K shift in 1973 when it was cut back to Eastern Pkwy; any idea why that was done? It was still a local in 1974. --SPUI (talk) 23:18, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You're right. I have no idea; if there were a racial protest I would have thought it would have shown up in the papers at the time. So I have no opinion one way or the other. I can think of a few precedents where transportation signage or routings had political significance: when the West Berlin subway hooked beneath East Berlin. After the Berlin Wall was put up, the line still ran, but stations in East Berlin were closed and guarded; after the 1967 war, Israel reinstated a bus route that had been cancelled when Jerusalem was partitioned. This apparently had symbolic meaning since it was mentioned in the western press. The only example I can think of where there was an ethnically-tinged protest against a route designation was in an Eastern European city (sorry I can't remember which one) where, maybe 20(?) years ago, the authorities were giving a particular route number to a tram service. It seems that the number was infamous because it was that of a tram line that many Jews took from the city ghetto to a point where they were deported. Enough people remembered that there was a major protest and I believe a different route number was chosen. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 05:09, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Here's another,recent one for you. Supposedly the newest light rail line in LA is called the Gold line and not the yellow line because of the fact that it passes through Chinatown, and they wanted to avoid the obvious racial references. Gold sounds better anyway. --oknazevad 00:20, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Diamond 5 service

I corrected the information on the diamond 5.

5 service to 238th Street is signified as a diamond and only runs during the rush hours. The page had it as regular service with Dyre Avenue trains as rush hour. The Dyre Avenue 5 (a/k/a "circle 5") is the regular service.

--Allan 17:29, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks - I missed that somehow. --SPUI (talk) 18:20, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Opening paragraph

The opening paragraph as it stood:

"Nomenclature used on the New York City Subway system has been defined by New York City's Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) to precisely identify each part of the system, both internally and publicly. Some of the nomenclature dates back to the original operators of the system, while some was adopted much more recently because of changing conditions."

was too broadly stated, and factually incorrect at several levels. The wording I substituted describes the origin of the nomenclature, very little of which originated after Unification in 1940. Additionally:

• The bolded lead statement is supposed to match the title of the article (matter of Wikipedia style);
• It has not been defined by the MTA. The MTA is an oversite agency only, though it has influence over its subsidiaries and affilities'
• The MTA is not "New York City's" anything. It is a state corporate agency; in fact the NYCTA is also a state, not a city entity;
• Almost all of the nomenclature in this article is from historical usage, as I alluded to above, not from an conscious effort to "precisely identify each part of the system. In point of fact, nomenclature varies depending between public and internal usage, and also varies between legal and colloquial usage. -- Cecropia 02:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

W diamond

There never was a W diamond service. At the time, ALL W trains ran express on the line, and when such changes effected all trains, then the circle designation would be used on the trains. The Diamond W signs are a remnant of an intention to change the old Diamond N line(which was essentially identical to the current W) to a Diamond W.

GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. LuciferMorgan 00:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Good Article Review

This article is currently at Good Article Review. LuciferMorgan 09:44, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

R diamond

The brochure referenced shows that the R diamond was yellow. According to [2], it was always yellow, but newer rollsigns have a brown R diamond. --NE2 19:33, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Trunk line vs. service bullets

I have added the M service to Nassau Street again. Essex Street is part of the Nassau Street trunk line. That station is served by the M, which is now orange. The Nassau Street trunk line now serves two different colors; brown and orange at that station. A similar situation will occur when the Second Avenue trunk line opens. It's trunk line color will be turquoise, but it will also be served by the yellow Q above 63rd Street. Thanks. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:14, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I added an explanation stating that the M train uses TWO trunk lines despite being colored orange.Richiekim (talk) 13:19, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, that looks good. I still don't understand why the FIND on the R160s shows a colored bullet when the M is in shuttle service. It should be gray then. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:36, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

A number of lines use more than one trunk for portions. The B and D both run on the 8th avenue trunk for longer than their run on the Sixth Avenue trunk line. In addition, the F runs on what has historically been considered the Crosstown line (Bergen-Church) Considering all the exceptions, I'm going to remove the M from Nassau, and reword a little to make the removal be fully correct. Adding the M is confusing, besides the point of the paragraph, and leaves out the other examples of the same principle. The whole point of that table is to show how services are colored based on trunk lines. 98.14.158.206 (talk) 00:19, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

<A>

Recently, I have been incorperating the <A> diamond service into Wikipedia's pages. However User:IGeminiX brought up a point that the MTA does not use <A> in its publications. This is not true, as the reference I pointed to which included the <A> was the most recent schedule (6/25/010). When I first brought the <A> to the (A) and (S) articles earlier this year it caught on and now the <A> is in regular use on Wikipedia except for this page and in the list of services on the main NYCS page - A ML-Talk-Cont-Count (12:37, 23 October 2010 (UTC))

I personally don't think it is own route as sure, it may appear on the schedules but even the trains themselves during those 10 trains from/to Rockaway Park all use the regular (A) rollsign. I personally think it it deserves its own route if it is actually used in the system like the <6> and <7>, but even then, on the New York City Subway, we only say we have 24 lines since the <6> and <7> aren't even separate lines as they are just different versions of current lines.--iGeMiNix 15:35, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

To your point I think that <6><7> should not appear on the nomenclature and main pages is we don't include <A>. The difference is that I feel we should include <A><7><6>. At Rockaway Line stations, some signs have an <A> logo, and the reason that the <A> logo doesn't appear on train rollsigns is that R32s and R46s are old and do not include the <A> logo. At the time of R32/R46 creation, (H) served this line only. Now that <A> has joined (H), they didn't update because R160/R175 can have a diamond A programmed in when they start serving the Eighth Ave line. MTA considers it the same type of thing as the (Z) which is included in the (J) article. - A ML-Talk-Cont-Count (18:10, 23 October 2010 (UTC))

I understand your point on the <A> but I believe that it should only be shown if it is shown in the station themselves which aren't actually used at all in the real world. We only use it on Wiki to show it is Rush Hour service, even though it is still with the regular circle (A) anyways. The (Z) is different as even though I believe it did use the <Z> on the maps are some point, the R40/42s never used the <Z> in service anyways, it only used the regular (Z). The <6> and <7> as mentioned below are actually used and appear in stations which is why we include it. So my opinion is that we should only include what is seen in the real world rather then what is seen on schedules which the <A> is not even used in service.--iGeMiNix 23:08, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

The only place the MTA uses the <A> is in the schedule; 5 trains in the AM and 5 in the PM are marked with a diamond to indicate Rockaway Park service. Unlike the <6> and <7>, this is not displayed on the trains or on the stations. Therefore, I think the <A> should only be used on the A train and IND Rockaway Line pages. We shouldn't speculate what the R160s or R179s will display if they are used on the A in the future. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:53, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

We could argue forever about this, but here is a possible solution: <A> bullet is listed in the boxes on the main and nomenclature pages. In the diamond route article we list <A to Rockaway> under a new section labeled "Partial Use" (We would consequently label the other sections "In Use" and "Former Use"), and explain that the ten trains are designated <A> but signed within the system as (A) - A ML-Talk-Cont-Count

To be honest, the schedule is hardly any better as a source as if you checked the N train, it still shows it as Broadway Express and they also make mistakes on the M calling it Myrtle Ave Ave. But sure if you really want to put it, I guess I am fine with it. Even though like I said, <A> that exist in the real world doesn't even use the <A>. I would still think it would be a bad information as if a reader reads it on the site and then checks the MTA Subway Map, which they would probably check more then the schedule, they would probably be confused as it doesn't exist on something that is viewed most as a source.--iGeMiNix 14:51, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

• I think that <A> should be only used on A and Rockaway Park Branch articles as current rolling stock doesn't use <A> on roll signs. Just my $0.02 Gfoley4 / Wanna chat? 03:08, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

VOTING

Yes because this tells readers that <A> does exist and is not in the same category as <4><5><M>, but is not consistantly used. -AMLNet49 (08:30, 24 October 2010)

Use of term "Line"

While I have avoided using the term "Line" with regards to train services here, it is clearly a correct use of the term, as such is used by people in day to day communications, the press, as well as the MTA itself in press releases. Why do we on wikipedia have a policy of avoiding this, when clearly no such policy is used outside of this website?157.252.166.124 (talk) 18:35, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

The line refers to the physical railroad a service or train travels over. Calling a service a line is just confusing. Acps110 ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:04, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Diamond services

This section could be expanded. I can see evidence of diamond service early as 1979 ().--Svgalbertian (talk) 18:16, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Station names counted

The article says: Of the system's 468 stations, 32 are named by a combination street and landmark, 21 by street and neighborhood name, 15 solely for landmarks, and three solely for neighborhoods; the remainder are identified by street names alone.

I have counted something else:

How many	What
329	street (168 Streets, 111 Avenues)
12	neighborhood
2	stadium
1	museum
3	municipality
3	transit station
2	park
53	street + street
23	neighborhood + street
5	street + neighborhood
5	street + stadium
4	street + museum
1	street + municipality
4	street + transit station
1	transit station + street
1	neighborhood + transit station
3	street + park
1	park + street
4	street + business center
1	street + street + business center
6	street + university or college
1	other object (aqueduct) + street
1	sports team + neighborhood
1	neighborhood + street + street
1	street + street + transit station

Vcohen (talk) 15:38, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

The totals are:

How many	What
329	street
12	neighborhood
11	landmark
53	street + street
23	neighborhood + street
5	street + neighborhood
27	street + landmark
3	landmark + street
1	neighborhood + landmark
1	landmark + neighborhood
2	street + street + landmark
1	neighborhood + street + street

Vcohen (talk) 18:28, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on New York City Subway nomenclature. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090818012400/http://gothamist.com/2007/08/03/michael_hertz_d.php to http://gothamist.com/2007/08/03/michael_hertz_d.php

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:07, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

M train shuttle southbound never goes south

In the section on Internal Usage, would it be worth mentioning that the Myrtle Avenue Line (including the current M train shuttle) always travels in a compass direction other than its railroad direction? That seems just as interesting as the Nassau Street Line railroad north going south in Manhattan. The M train timetable lists the southbound stops of the shuttle in the general direction of compass northeast. Islanddon (talk) 04:12, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

1967 and 1979 colors

Studying the original 1967 map and comparing and contrasting with contemporaneous vintage Pantone swatches (color specifiers and formula guides), plus the properties of uncoated vs. coated paper, it would appear that the colors at the outset were:

- 6, N, SS (Franklin): PMS 123*

- 1, 7, D, EE, JJ, SS (Culver): PMS 165

- 2, HH, QB, RJ: PMS 185

- 4, AA, F, MJ: PMS 239

- A, TT, SS (Bowling Green) (and after 1968, KK / K): PMS 300

- 3, 8, E, M, NX, SS (42nd St.): PMS 311*

- CC, GG, RR, SS (Dyre Ave.; this color used for all shuttles after July 1, 1968): PMS 355*

- 5, B, LL, QJ / J, SS (145th St. / Lenox Terminal): PMS Process Black*

(* showing differences from the 1970 Graphics Standards Manual)

Meanwhile, in the 1979 color specs, PMS 430 was the original color for the LL / L Canarsie line, and PMS Process Black for the S shuttles (though on roll signs, the same grey was used for that as on the LL / L). Would any map experts on here know at what point they switched to 50% halftone for the former and 70% halftone for the latter?

And also, John Tauranac recommended PMS 130 for what, in 1979, was still the N, QB and RR Broadway lines. Though PMS 116 U was used on the uncoated paper on which the first edition of the 1979 map was printed, and that lighter color apparently took hold in the same 1987 period in which PMS 286 replaced PMS 300 as the color for the Eighth Avenue trunk lines.

‒Wbwn (talk) 09:03, 24 July 2024 (UTC)