Talk:Frith (druidry)

What is the origin of the word "frith" in this sense? "European" does not have any linguistic meaning. Does it share an etymology with the Germanic "frith", or perhaps from Scots "firth"? When is its first recorded use to mean "augury"?

What specific practices does a frith entail? Who has witnessed a frith? In what specific culture does frith originate? Highland Scots Celtic? How and when did it spread? What sources do its modern practioners use?

http://home.flash.net/~bellbook/faolcu/frith.html

I am sorry that I have no idea. Hopefully one of the neo-pagans who wrote the text will come by and give an explanation.--Wiglaf 16:07, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I added the /disputed/ tag, since it doesn't seem like the information here has any grounds in reality. If anyone wants to clean up the facts, that'd be great. --69.158.62.22 00:59, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

To elaborate:

Frith is a Western European druidic augury through which the future can be determined by connection to the divine. <-- There should be something that explains what the supposed ritual actually consists of.

Traditionally, Druidic ceremonies occurred (and still do) all over Europe from Germany to Ireland, from Italy and Spain to the Netherlands. <-- This sentence seems to have little relevance.

So the root of this word would be best described as European in origin rather than Gallic, Germanic or Latin. <-- As pointed out above, this doesn't make any sense. "European" doesn't mean anything when talking about the etymology of words. If there is any evidence for the etymology of the word frith, then there might be a starting point. (Though arguing a point from etymology are most often spurious, unless the point you're making is linguistic.)

In Indo-European culture, the (druidic) priest or intellectual (Brahmin) class is considered the highest class, above warriors, rulers, farmers etc. <-- Most of what we know about Indo-European culture is speculative. We're talking pre-history here. While there is some evidence for PIE classes as mentioned here, I don't see what that has to do with a Frith.

In this sense, this is the most important and sacred meaning of Frith. <-- Where does this come from? What sense? What meaning?

These ceremonies now occur throughout the continents of the world wherever druids exist. For example, Mt Warning on the northern New South Wales coast, the first place where the sun hits Australia every morning. <-- And?

Sorry if I'm being harsh. I'm a Neo-Pagan myself, and I'd like to see at least some accuracy.

I'd vote for deleting this article if it can't be cleaned up soon (the clean-up tag has been attached to this article for nearly a year). I don't have any knowledge of Friths myself, though. --69.158.62.22 01:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the deletion unless substantive citations can be ascribed to it. A, albeit brief, search of several databases (EBSCO, ebrary) yielded to Frith, and Frith AND druidry yielded only matches with last name Frith. L Hamm 16:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Goodness, I just jumped in and enjoyed the possibility of this thing called frith social relationships conducive to peace

and then there's fred no state of war

& frid no state of disturbance

amw Oct. 2006

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 03:30, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Major Revision

I've expanded the article somewhat, making a major change by expanding the passing reference to the Norse divination practice frétt. One cannot say much about the frith without comparison to the frétt. I personally like neo-paganism, but there is not a lot of flesh on a purely Scottish (or, for that matter, even "Celtic") divination practice frith, given the fact that it only appears very late and, what is worse, that it emerges from the works of Carmichael, who treated his sources in ways that would make any modern folklorist's nose grow by a few inches (provided they are made of wood). The connection to the Norse equivalent is undeniable (and hasn't been denied in any secondary literature I know of), which means that the word itself, if that connection exists, cannot be of Celtic origin. The link via the Scots term ("frete, freyte, freit, freet, frett"), which I have now included in the article, is not my own idea, but the prevalent scholarly one (I've reffed Davidson). If anyone has more peer-reviewed material on either frith or frétt, they are more than welcome to add it. From the neo-pagan point of view, please take into account that our sources on frith are actually much worse (i.e. more recent, sparser and less reliable) than the attested history both of frete and of frétt. The connection to druidism is much, much weaker by far than the connection with Norse settlement divination, considering the importance of Norse influence in northern Scotland from the 9th. c. onward. Trigaranus (talk) 01:18, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Move?

I'd like to include this article in the categories "Germanic Paganism" and "Viking practices", but I'm not going to do it as long as it has "Frith (druidry)" as its name. Will it be okay if we move it to a more becoming header? Trigaranus (talk) 01:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Split?

Seems even a bit more adequate... I'm sorry but I can't help finding the "frith" part extremely meagre and marginal, sourcewise. The expression is used rampantly on any god-fearing neo-pagan homepage, but usually any information given about it is a simple paraphrase, translation or quotation of Carmichael, who seriously is NOT a reliable authority. It makes me slightly nauseous to see a factoid take off like that. Trigaranus (talk) 01:54, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

there isn't any topic of "frith (druidry)". This article was created by mistake in 2005, as a split off frith, I understand in an effort to get rid of this dubious stuff on the frith article. This still isn't a standalone topic. Whatever is notable and referenced should be merged back, and the rest should be scrapped. --dab (𒁳) 21:37, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I think the problem is that those groups of the neo-pagan spectrum which tend to see themselves as more "Germanic" (whatever that is) have picked up the OE frith stuff this page apparently was an offshoot of, while the more "Celtic" ones (ditto) tend to echo Carmichael's Carmina, speaking about an alleged Celtic "frithir" (google that one once, and you'll be in awe - one page declares it to be a ritual connected to Brigid!). It's a bit funny that the only attested pagan practice in the whole mixture (the frett from Scandinavian texts) seems to be completely ignored by either group. What I would suggest is this split option:

1. There can be a remark on the frith page that some neo-pagan groups lay some sort of claim to the seery "frith" unrelated to the OE one, and that this is apparently based on notorious Mr. Carmichael's Carmina.
2. I was actually planning (before I came across this thing) to have the frétt included on the Norse paganism page, or on an article on its own (seeing that even the öndvegissúlur have an individual entry).

Are you with me? (in a melodramatic tone) BTW: nice to see you! Trigaranus (talk) 22:22, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Or we might just turn this article around, calling it frétt and adding the Carmichael/neo-pagan "frith" divination section below. Trigaranus (talk) 22:27, 13 February 2009 (UTC)