Talk:Bersaglieri

Untitled

I copyedited the article, but I'm not sure what was meant by this:

Their speciality is the fast moving they hold

If anyone knows, please fix it. [[User:CyborgTosser|CyborgTosser (Only half the battle)]] 21:14, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Dear CyborgTosser,

This might help you:

When marching for an official ceremony: the Italian Bersaglieri are the complete opposite of the French Legionnaires.

The Legionnaires are known for their white cap (called: képi) and their slow march at the 14th of July parade (for the French national day).

For the same kind of official celebrations, Bersaglieri (including the music players) are runnning. In fact, they are always running when they move from one place to another.

more edits

I've done some minor copy edits, but there are a few links that won't work. Wikipedia has no entry for the Sardinian army, for one thing, and some of this doesn't tie in to the italian history segment very well. I have some info on the Berseglieri kicking around, so I'll add updates when I have time, and correct the links. Was this article originaly in Italian? --Caspiankilkelly 17:02, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Bicycle pic

There's a nice pic of the Bersaglieri in the mountains with their bicycles at Commons, follow the (commons link), however the article has enough pics already so I don't know if any other editors feel its worthwhile replacing one of the existing pics (probably the magazine front page) with the bicycle pic. KTo288 (talk) 12:58, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

"Flipped" pic

The photo captioned "Two Bersaglieri during the Risorgimento, ca. 1863" is "flipped". Left and right are reversed in the image. This is apparent by looking at the hats. The feathers are always worn on the right side, and the hat is always worn inclined so as to cut across the right eyebrow and touch the right ear. This was originally to shade the shooting eye. Also the tunics in the image button on the wrong side, like women's clothes. Also the swords hang on the right, which would have meant that both of these Bersaglieri were left-handed, which is very unlikely. Perhaps someone more skilled than I could "flip" this picture to make it correct.74.109.236.194 (talk) 10:12, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Light or Mechanised Infantry

The article is self contradictory in describing their current role - the lead says they are Light infantry while later in the article there is a claim that they are currently Mechanised infantry. This contradiction needs to be fixed by editors with access to better sources - most of what I find are copies of this article. Roger (talk) 08:45, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

questionable figures

"During World War I, the 12 regiments of Bersaglieri fought with distinction. Of the 210,000 members of Bersaglieri regiments, 32,000 were killed and 50,000 wounded during the war." These figures don't match. Even if I subtract all KIA and WIA, that's still more than 10,000 per regiment on average. Regiments are much smaller. This is fishy. (There were indeed only 12 regiments, so I doubt the 210k figure.) Lastdingo (talk) 17:46, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Dubious Bugle Calls

The audios for the different calls in the 'bugle calls' section are very peculiar. I suspect this is a transcription error, where a B flat accidental is missing for each call, resulting in B naturals, and diminished triads instead of major ones. As it is now, the calls are impossible to play on a bugle, and so are almost certainly incorrect. Robsj 001 (talk) 17:56, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Cleanup

The inline citations in this article are few and highly specialized, which makes it very hard to edit. Also, important characteristics of the Bersiglieri are mixed up with historical material throughout the article. I'm attempting to make some sense of all this, by adding a Characteristics and symbols (or something like that) section at the start of the article. Lou Sander (talk) 00:47, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

"Rangers and other commando units"

Hello Lou. I reverted your edit because the cited source is error-filled and seems to have been written by a fanboy. I.e. the source compares the Bersaglieri to "the American Army Rangers, Green Berets, Navy SEALs or the Air Force Special Tactics Teams". All wrong. Italy's ranger unit is the 4° Reggimento Alpini Paracadutisti, its Green Berets equivalent is the 9° Reggimento d'Assalto Paracadutisti "Col Moschin", the Comando Raggruppamento Subacquei e Incursori "Teseo Tesei" are the equivalent of the Navy Seals and the Special Tactic Teams are the 17º Stormo Incursori. Today the Bersaglieri field three mechanized infantry regiments equipped with Dardo IFV (1st, 8th, 11th) and three infantry regiments equipped with Freccia IFV (3rd, 6th, 7th). No Bersaglieri regiment has ever been "Ranger", Special Forces, or Special Operations Forces. The source is error-filled from top to bottom (i.e. the line that the feathers "before the days of helmets, deflected the assault of many a saber blade" is wrong, as the hat was originally a cloth-covered helmet; or "freeing the city of the Pope’s rule", and so on), and the source has nothing to say about the real history of the Bersaglieri. For that look to primary sources like i.e: Esercito - I Bersaglieri, where all the active regiments are linked and you can read up on the regimental organizations and history. Some of the text in the source is so erroneous that it's cringeworthy - like: "From foot soldiers to motorcycle troops, the Bersaglieri today"... there are no more motorcycle Bersaglieri units; these were World War II units (companies attached to Bersaglieri regiments and one battalion), that were all disbanded in September 1943. best regards, noclador (talk) 14:50, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I notice that this long article contains almost no inline citations to any source. The few sources mentioned refer to narrow timeframes and individual campaigns. I feel justified in providing inline citations to something that seems much better, even though some may be critical of it.

The reference to various U.S. elite combat units has to do with their similarity to the Bersaglieri's "agility, sharp shooting skills and tough, physical standards...", their fierceness as fighters, and their ability to maneuver rapidly as independent units. That is clear in the source, but perhaps was not as clear in the article. I propose to reintroduce this material and make it more specific. There is more to say on your thoughtful criticisms, but I would prefer to first see what you think so far. Lou Sander (talk) 05:06, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

No source, which states commonality between the Bersaglieri and the Rangers, could be considered reliable. In the British military traditions of the 18th and the 19th century the Rangers were mostly irregular auxiliary forces, which fought in a supporting role detached from the main body of forces (police the rear, harass the enemy communications). This is not the case of the Bersaglieri, which were and are regular infantry. In modern US military traditions (WWII and later the 75th Ranger Regt) the US Army Rangers are special infantry, which also operates in a supporting role ahead of the main body of forces, most prominently by assaulting fortified areas in order to open a breach for the main forces. The Bersaglieri aren't that either. The closest the Italian Army came to that were the Arditi, which were the Italian stormtroopers of WWI, organised with the task to breach the Austro-Hungarian trenches. Even the Incursori of Cold War and modern times cannot be considered a Ranger-equivalent, as they are proper special forces.B.Velikov (talk) 14:15, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Nothing to say against adding inline citations, but from reputable sources and not fanboy articles, that are based on hearsay and fantasy. As for the comparison to US elite units - no, no, no and no - the Bersaglieri have no "agility, sharp shooting skills and tough, physical standards" like the mentioned US units. As already said above: they are mechanized infantry and have been since 1936. Absolutely nothing distinguishes them from the other Italian army mechanized infantry units, no special training, no extra agility, no sharp shooting skills, and no physical standards different from to the 5th, 9th, 62nd, 82nd, 151st, and 152nd infantry regiments. noclador (talk) 14:27, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Tony Traficante, the author of the published article you so easily besmirch, is a respected researcher and writer for the Order Italian Sons and Daughters of America, an organization benefiting Italian-Americans since 1930. Your references to him as a 'fanboy' and to his work as 'based on hearsay and fantasy' are baseless, impolite and uncalled for. Shame on you, Noclador. I must say that I see a lot of hearsay and fantasy in your own comments here. Your criticisms are in the nature of original research, and you seem uninterested in improving the Bersaglieri article. Perhaps I am wrong, but that is how I see it. If I am wrong, please accept my apologies.

As an example of why I doubt you, you state (offering nothing to back it up) that the Bersaglieri have no special sharpshooting skills or physical requirements. Yet those are themes throughout the (mostly unreferenced) balance of the article. The article states that bersagliere means "marksman" in English. Perhaps you could provide us with a better translation, or explain to us (hopefully without original research) why such a name is associated with soldiers who have no special training in marksmanship.

I would really like to work with you on improving this article, or to improve it on my own without unreasonable interference, but I am starting to think that this may be impossible. Lou Sander (talk) 20:53, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

1. Originally Bersaglieri were recruited as sharpshooting skirmishers to complement the line infantry, whose job was massed fire. Their name derives from their founding in 1836 and is based on bersaglio = target disk.
2. As skirmishers the Bersaglieri had to have a stronger physique than the average line infantry troops - again that was in the 19th century.
3. Post-WWII the Bersaglieri became mechanized infantry and the former requirements were dropped. Today nothing but their dress and parade pace distinguish them from other Italian mechanized infantry units.
4. Mr. Traficante's work is full of errors and "fanboy" blabla. Already the title is erroneous: "The Bersaglieri: Italy’s Spectacular Military Group" a) the Bersaglieri are a "Specialità" of the "Arma di Fanteria", and in Italian Army nomenclature a "group" is an artillery unit equivalent in size to a battalion. Mr. Traficante knows little or nothing about the Italian Army of today.
5. If you had looked at the articles history you would have seen that I have written large swaths of it; and if you had compared Mr. Traficante's article with the wikipedia Bersaglieri article you could have seen that he partially copied his article from the Bersaglieri article. I.e. his line "as peacekeepers in the Multinational Force in Lebanon, and in Yugoslav and Somali Civil Wars, and were also active in Operation Iraqi Freedom." is just copy/paste.
6. Now, if you wish to improve the article - please do so by using reputable sources; if you should add erroneous information, I - as an Italian, native speaker, former Italian Army member of the IV Army Corps General Staff, and member of the army's veteran organization - will correct or revert you. noclador (talk) 07:33, 16 September 2018 (UTC)