Talk:Western music (North America)

Move?

This article should probably be moved, but I don't know what to change it to. The most common term for it might be "cowboy music", but I think that might be too misleading and overly specific. Should this article be an overview of music in the western US and Canada, or is it supposed to be just about Anglo music in this region, or just cowboy folk songs and popularized versions of them? Any thoughts? Tuf-Kat 00:48, May 1, 2005 (UTC)

Spaghetti Western music

I have to disagree strongly that music from these foreign films are cowboy, or western music. They are a whole different animal and reflect Europe's view of the North American cowboy. They are not the orignal, however. I am going to change the second paragraph to something less misleading. Frankly, I don't even think it should be mentioned in this article. Surely not in the introduction. Steve Pastor 20:45, 3 February 2007 (UTC) By coincidence a "spaghetti western" music composer was profiled on National Public Radio this moring (there will be more about him on the Academy Awards ceremony). His music was described as classical and pop. One song which seened to feature a "Native American whistle" was titled Gabriel's Oboe. Guess it wasn't what it sounded like. And the article is specifically about Western music (North America) The reference to these movies does not contain a verifiable source. I am deleting it. Steve Pastor 19:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Where Western Music came from

Since there have been several reverts, I thought I would start a discussion section. Everyone should keep in mind that music existed long before recordings were possible. In that era, which also had no broadcasting, music was much more regional than it is today. On a recent trip I spoke to a woman from Houston. She was incredulous that anyone would question the fact that Czechs, etc, helped create Western music (She was a Czech herself, and her father, who is in his 80s, is still dancing polka at country western dances. p.s. This same ethnic mix explains why polka is danced at CW venues.) Although the term Country Western is often shortened to Country, the compound term for it shows that our comtemporary country music has at least two distinct roots. The different ethnic mixes, and different environments, gave rise to different kinds of music. At this point arguments to the contrary should be stated here, rather than simply deleting information with no substantial justification. Steve Pastor 17:16, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Origins

I do not know enough about the genre to risk an edit, but some statements are simply silly and have no place in Wikipedia; for example: "Most people are under the impression[citation needed] Western music began with the cowboy, but this is not the case." It is badly written, generalises to an unacceptable degree, has no supporting evidence, passive, and badly written. What 'most people believe', even if demonstrated to be so, is neither here nor there. Give us the facts! Heenan73 (talk) 16:41, 7 May 2013 (UTC) Heenan, I encourage you to remove unsupported statements. Some of us who have been around for a while tire of "policing" articles. Steve Pastor (talk) 18:49, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Western Music Association poster.png

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BetacommandBot (talk) 08:21, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Capitalization

This article (and related information e.g. in the "Country music" article) consistently refers to "country and Western" music; lower-case "c" and upper-case "W". It looks a bit strange, and it's definitely inconsistent. "Pop" and "Rock and Roll" are capitalized in the artice, so why not "Country and Western"?

It seems that this is a roundabout way of being pedantic, by way of inisting that "Western" be capitalized (although it needn't be), and calling attention to the pedantry by putting the capitalized "Western" in close proximity to the non-capitalized "country." Be consistent. Capitalize all these words according to consistent rules, please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.68.134.1 (talk) 22:58, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Although the article now uses "country and western" in lowercase, all other uses of the phrase "Western music" in the article have "Western" capitalized (in mid-sentence). I also notice that "Western" is capitalized in Western (genre), Spaghetti Western, and Science fiction Western. MOS:GENRECAPS seems to suggest lowercase. I don't see clear guidance in MOS:COMPASS. See also Talk:Western (genre)/Archive 1#Capitalization?, Talk:Spaghetti Western#Requested move (moving from lowercase to capitalized). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:12, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Use lower-case (including for pop and rock and roll), per MOS:GENRECAPS.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:55, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

There's something to consider here, that the "Western" in these references are taken from the American West, which is conventionally capitalized as a proper noun. That makes Western the genre (and its derivatives like spaghetti Western) adjectives taken from a proper name, which would be capitalized per MOS:GENRECAPS. oknazevad (talk) 20:27, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

[Edit: changed to 'no', see note just below]. Yes, these are genre related. Generally 'western' means west of something. Western, uppercase, let's readers know that the genre and not direction is being referenced. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:34, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Strongly disagree. This is just yet another WP:SSF and MOS:SIGCAPS case. Capitalized "Western" refers to Western culture, and this is a very, very good reason not to capitalize it in this sense. The whole of "Western music" (a very broad and deeply historical sphere of global music) and "western music" (a modern American sub-genre) are not at all the same thing or even in comparable categories (other than the latter is a tiny subset of the former).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:01, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Good points SMcCandlish, both by you and lower in the discussion. Changed my opinion, and this should be lowercased per the standard use of understanding of what 'Western' means when capitalized. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:09, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Randy. Now I really have to admit that you don't always fight me on lowercasing. But I did try to make that point earlier...next paragraphs below... Dicklyon (talk) 05:12, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

It's overwhelmingly lowercase in books for country and western, but rather mixed for western music. Since "Western music" has at least two prominent and distinctly different meanins (western US & western vs oriental), it would take some more digging to see if capitalization is consistent within either of those. Has anyone looked into that already? Dicklyon (talk) 15:03, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Looks to me like most book uses of "Western" music are not about the American west, but about Europe as opposed to Asia. As shown above, "country and western" uses lowercase western almost always. So I'll update that article. Dicklyon (talk) 02:12, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

In the process I noticed a whole bunch of other capitalized "Western" genre stuff that's more often lowercase in sources (e.g. Spaghetti Western). Dicklyon (talk) 03:23, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I see that was already brought up. Same deal with Space Western and more; not usually capped in sources, so need to move. Dicklyon (talk) 03:27, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Dicklyon you've made some significant changes AND page moves based on a very limited discussion and, seemingly, the conclusion/consensus of your own personal opinion. You've taken your own conclusion on a single article TP and applied it wholesale across an an entire genre where it may or may not be appropriate. Significant changes like this require a more thorough discussion and vetting. @Randy Kryn and @Oknazevad are right to point out that MOS:GENRECAPS applies (unless the genre name contains a proper name such as the name of a place). When speaking of "Western films and television", "Western" refers to the American West and is a proper name. It differentiates it from simply being about western civilization in general. Regardless of your opinion on it (and anyone else's), the scope of discussion here is far too limited to result in wholesale changes and page moves without more input. I have rolled those changes back, pending the outcome of a more appropriately thorough discussion. ButlerBlog (talk) 12:38, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for joining in. Note that the two editors you mention always fight me on case corrections, and their reasons don't really fit with how MOS:CAPS says we determine what to treat as a proper name. From book stats, it's very clear that capitalization of "western" is not necessary in these contexts. Dicklyon (talk) 14:25, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

I'd very much disagree with you that "book stats" are "very clear". Of the 15 genre-specific sources I commonly use citing Western film and television articles, 13 of them capitalize "Western" when referring to the genre. Most of these are "film school"-type texts, generally authored by individuals who are either teaching in film school or college media/communications or are writing to that audience (pointing that out because context matters). Of others that I commonly cite that are non-genre specific (i.e. not specific to Westerns alone), but are specific to the television medium, it's an even split. Capitalizing the "Western" as a genre is more common than not, especially in an academic and genre-specific setting. ButlerBlog (talk) 14:54, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Dicklyon, no, I don't always fight you on caps. The vast majority of the time I don't comment (although when I do it's usually on the side of uppercasing, which is where you may have gotten confused on the "always" labeling). Randy Kryn (talk) 15:03, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

True that. Dicklyon (talk) 15:24, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

The book stats are most clear on "spaghetti western", and "country and western"; somewhat more mixed on "western film" and "space western". But where usage is mixed, we're supposed to go with lowercase, per MOS:CAPS. Dicklyon (talk) 05:12, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Regarding Butlerblog's argument: The idea that western must be capitalized because it's derived from American West or Old West which are often capitalized, is not a defensible argument. There are all kinds of cases in which the adjectival form of something is not capitalized; it's emphatically not a 1:1 relationship. The most that can be said is that adjectives derived from proper names are fairly often capitalized, but that this even varies by how they are used: Platonic ideal but platonic relationship, French language but french fries, Draconian legal regime of Athens, but draconian behavior by your HR manager, Scotch whisky but a scotch-doubles tournament, English literature but put some english on the cue ball, the Caesarean dynasty of Rome but a caesarean [or cesarean] section, etc., etc. There are even loads of noun-form epyonyms that are not capitalized (afghan, ampere, angstrom, argyle, atlas, and on and on). The further removed the usage is from the original referent, the less likely it is to be capitalized, and the western music genre is actually pretty far removed from the historical American West AKA Old West, just loosely inspired by it, and somewhat geographically related to western US states, though like all genres, it is picked up by musicians anywhere (I know a Canadian band, Broken Joe, who do country/western, blues, and bluegrass, for example; did their website back in the day).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:38, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Lowercase, please. Go with the overwhelming majority of books. Otherwise we'll end up capping everything to do with musical style. Tony (talk) 08:17, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

I had a very long (and sourced) response to the above, but in re-reading @SMcCandlish and @Tony1's responses, I changed course - not on capitalization, but on what media we're talking about. I want to be clear - I was drawn into this discussion because @Dicklyon used it as justification for a number of page moves that are film/television, then mass edits across those pages, and that is what I objected to. I do not see this as the same discussion. If it is, it needs to be had in a more appropriate venue. To discuss film/television (which is what I was doing above) is to take the direction of this discussion off course, IMO. Whatever the outcome of this discussion, it should be for this medium. But it should not be used as consensus for page moves in film. ButlerBlog (talk) 13:25, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

OK, I'll get around to constructing a multi-RM for the film and TV genre articles. Dicklyon (talk) 15:43, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

The multi-RM discussion is open now at Talk:List of Western subgenres#Requested move 12 July 2023. Dicklyon (talk) 16:05, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

We play both types of music: country and Western (non-Asian). Book stats for "western movie" are just a bit under half lowercase. Pretty clear not to cap per both MOS:GENRECAPS and MOS:CAPS more generally. Cinderella157 (talk) 08:54, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

• lower case, please. The evidence presented in this discussion, particularly from MOS:GENRECAPS, supports this.~TPW 14:00, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Following an interesting discussion at Talk:List of Western subgenres#Requested move 12 July 2023, we now have an interesting RM result at Talk:List of spaghetti Westerns#Requested move 24 July 2023. Also see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Westerns#Discussion of capitalization and associated page moves and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Westerns#Recommended page move. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:15, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Re-capitalization

@BarrelProof and Oknazevad: why this revert? It's very clear if you look at books that "Western music" refers to European, as opposed to "Oriental" (Eastern or Asian), and that lowercase is used when referring to America's western music and western swing. This is unrelated to the film genres question. Is there still some confusion about that? Dicklyon (talk) 18:20, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Never mind, I see that was before most of the discussion. I'll fix. Dicklyon (talk) 18:23, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

List of...

The List of Songs and the List of Artists sections seem to be incomplete, and, more importantly, not completable. I'd like to propose splitting them out to become their own articles, and naming those articles, "List of Notable Western Artists" and "List of Notable Western Songs". —  X  S  G  04:04, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Generally policy is to avoid long lists in general articles. I dislike all the dead-end links here as well.--Sabrebd (talk) 07:41, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh, no. The read links are no dead ends, since they show which articles missing have to be written under which keyword.--93.129.11.200 (talk) 17:18, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

List of western singers

The above list should also be in an alphabetical order. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.129.11.200 (talk) 17:16, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

 Done Lou Sander (talk) 05:11, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Blue Juniata

An anonymous editor removed the mention of this song and left no edit summary. I restored the material, which seems to be accurate and helpful to the article. It may or may not appear in the reference cited. If it doesn't, and somebody wants to remove it, they should let us know about it. Lou Sander (talk) 04:51, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

The article claims that "Blue Juniata" was "the first 'western' song". I somewhat doubt that is widely accepted to be the case. Only one (offline) source is cited, and the article about the song itself does not make that claim. The Library of Congress discusses the origins of the genre and does not mention it. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:22, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

The claim rests in part on the dubious assertion that the Appalachians marked "the west" in 1844. I'm pretty sure the Mississippi (if not further) would have marked the west at that point (by 1843, settlers in Oregon had organized a provisional government). Blue Juniata is a song that was written before (recorded) western music was a thing, but which had a lyrical theme (a romanticized "frontier") that attracted interest from recording artists in an era when western music had really become a thing (and at that point, the "frontier" was mostly a former thing). The Library of Congress mentions Home on the Range (1874?), which has also been widely recorded, and doesn't require Wikipedia voice jumping in with a parenthetical comment about what was "out West". "the first 'western' song" is a very strong claim that Wikipedia shouldn't be making without very strong sources. Plantdrew (talk) 02:34, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

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